Would you move to Cape Town?

I've worked with two South Africans, one black lady and one white man. Mriki (South African lady) moved here 15 years ago and has no plans to go back, not even to visit. One of her daughters followed suit and moved with her family here but her other daughter still lives there, they are in Durban.

She told me the story of how her next door neighbour (elderly) was gang raped, robbed and they cut both of her breasts off. She didn't survive.

The white South African, said he came here after he was stabbed on a bus. He lived there 21 years of his life and says he will never return and will certainly never take any of his children there.

I don't think these stories coming from direct sources, people who've lived there and witnessed these kinds of things, can be forgotten about and swept under the rug by people keen to visit. I know I would never go because of the people I know who lost family, friends and almost their own lives due to the violent crimes that happen every single day out there.

Is it possible to vote the government out or are the elections rigged?

The elections are largely fine. The issue is that the ANC for years got an over two-thirds majority which gave them complete control. Their percentages have gradually declined and they've lost their 2/3rds majority now but will likely still win the next election.

Initially they got huge landslides as the struggle party who had brought about the end of apartheid and had Mandela as leader. Over time the issue became more that there isn't any massively credible opposition. There's the DA, who run the province Cape Town is in. They are far more efficient and less corrupt but are unfortunately widely seen as too white (and they have a tendency to gaffes in this direction unfortunately). The other opposition party with any sort of numbers is the EFF and they are batshit Marxists.

There also tend to be gazillions of smaller parties that split the vote a bit.

If by some miracle the ANC does lose I do think it will trigger political violence though. There's a lot of people on the gravy train who won't want to lose that.

Is it possible to vote the government out or are the elections rigged?

It's a beautiful place really but after hearing stories about gruesome crime. I can't sorry I just can't 😥

OH lived in SA aged 18 months to 14 years.

He absolutely loved his childhood there, he still talks about it very regularly. Never wore shoes. No need for central heating. Fresh fish and diet rich in great quality steak and vegetables. Regular BBQs. Swam in the sea, spent whole weekends in the beach, saw loads of wildlife (his family travelled round a lot with Fathers work).

Without going into to much detail he's had a truly miserable life since returning to the UK, and reminisces fondly about his childhood. He loved growing up there. Due to exchange rate he'd be very very well off if he moved back. He still has close family there he'd love to spend time with. Would he go living there again? Never in a million years. Too violent by far. He says it was bad enough when he was little, but is so much worse now with guns being so widespread. The program of rolling electrical power cuts plays havoc with trying to reasonably run a home. He won't even got back on holiday to show me any of the places he lived.

The security situation and corruption is dire, with this of course linked. If OP is going to go, it is worth sharing security tips from being in CT/in the region. Some points below, though there are lots of great aspects in the region too.

Getting a thorough briefing before travelling (choosing where to live) and on arrival.
Having permanent security, rather than trying to call if there is a problem.
Looking after people working at your home, so they can get home safely and have a good standard of living and care.
Having a generator, so security systems work.
If choosing a flat, not to be on the ground or first/second floor because of the potential for break-ins. Also not to be too high in the building as fire alarms may fail and rescue may be limited.
If in a gated community, not to have a home on the perimeter away from the security point in case anyone scales the wall.
Guard dogs need to be highly trained, under control and not pose a danger to the family.

Having a second mobile phone on a different network and always keeping both charged.
Topping up the car when it is half full.
Etc., etc.

Making sure kids are safe in water and monitored as there are lots of pools.
Clearing through outdoor play areas in case of snakes and making sure kids are aware.

@KellyMarieTunstall2 yes tell us where you'll be staying and what you hope to do. If you're eg at the Waterfront and want to take organised trips you'll be absolutely fine - tourists are very well looked after.

Umm, did you see I was responding to a poster who has a holiday planned in October and is thinking of canceling?

Umm you do know that @ZarZarGabor will be living there, it's not a holiday

Please don't cancel. Honestly, you and your family will have a wonderful time. we were there a few months ago and it was fantastic. There are a lot of terrible stories on this thread but honestly, for people on holiday it's just not true. we went to multiple beaches, ate out, had lovely days with friends and family, took the kids to attractions and for shopping trips. It was truly fantastic.

Where are you staying? Happy to offer some family friendly (and safe) ideas!

I've read this thread with interest and sadness at hearing how awful things are in CT. We have a holiday booked there in October to see the usual tourist sites, and I'm now considering cancelling as it's not safe for families. We have 3 children.

This is a bit of a "how long is a piece of string" question. Depends on context. but things that me or other people I know have found different between South Africa and here include (this is just a top of my head list, not definitive or prescriptive):

The service industry is huge and it can be hard for non South Africans to understand how to interact, pay, tip etc. It can be confusing understanding why someone is packing your shopping, filing your car with petrol, directing you where to park etc etc and when and how to thank/tip. The glaring inequalities and poverty also impact things, creating interactions you would be very unlikely to have in this country.

South Africans have a reputation for bluntness and directness. This will present differently in say a white South African man vs a black South African woman, but it is nonetheless a defining feature and largely true. We are opinionated and direct.

Expectations around polite social distances/social interactions are different. English people can find it quite odd when, for example, at a restaurant, a random person will turn up at the table, pick up a toddler and wander off to a soft play. That person is probably employed by the restaurant, but that's not guaranteed. Similar situations will take places on beaches, in shops and so on. Similarly, a casual conversation can be more animated, more tactile etc than is standard or normal in the UK.

South Africans are generally very hospitable AND in Cape Town can be quite closed off and unfriendly. These two contradictory things can be true at the same time.

Bureaucracy is different and weird.

Broadly, and this is not definitive at all, but, days start and end earlier as a rule, particularly in Cape Town. That applies to working hours, school, social activities etc. Although in summer, sunset is also the defining time differentiator - activities happen pre sunset or after sunset. Also, no one specifically says that, making it very irritating for non Cape Townians trying to pin things down.

Cape Town car parks all completely throw you and take years off your life as no one in Cape Town can drive in car parks. The rules of the road cease to exist there.

If you were saying it was Oz, or NZ, or even US etc- as someone who did 2 years in Copenhagen I would say go for it whilst your child is young , especially if your move costs are covered- with SA- no way- our best friends are back after 12 years- she is a SA and quite a gung ho one too. You clearly know the downsides as have mentioned them in your very first post. They left because they no longer felt remotely safe without guns, big dogs and a local militia group- fed up of no power and quite often no water and feeling trapped in- 3 colleagues murdered between them. . They never went anywhere at night ever and got really fed up of constantly taking precautions just to nip out. I'm afraid the good things simply didn't balance out the crap things for them- the pool, the housemaid, the weather- they were still miserable. if you want that lifestyle any chance of similar openings in Oz or Canada or USA etc?

I have friends who lived in Cape Town and run a travel company. Because of the nature of their business, they definitely downplay the risks, violence, etc. However, a couple of years ago they started an family and moved out of the city to the countryside. I think it’s very telling that even they didn’t want to live in the city with a child.

Another SA friend has just returned from visiting family there. They are out in the sticks so not as affected by crime but the situation with electricity sounds like such a mess. 3 hours without power every morning and every evening.

I’m one of those annoying posters who isn’t from CT or has first hand experience other than a holiday there pre-kids, but my best friend is from there as are 2 of my three neighbours (albeit one set from Joburg not CT). What they all have in common is they moved from SA in the last 5 years when they had kids/got pregnant. I’m in NZ and my best friend is in Oz and they concede they get most of the ‘good bits’ over here that they left behind (stunning scenery, outdoor lifestyle, sunshine), but not the bad. The crime is horrific in CT but it’s the reasons for the crime they don’t miss most- the awful rich/poor divide, blatant racism etc Now neither NZ or Oz is perfect in those respects but the scale of difference is profound.
my best friend goes back to visit her elderly family (in their house with panic room) but refuses to take her young child. I find that telling. I won’t share the story of my neighbours but let’s just say not all their family got out alive.

Over hyped stories?

People are telling you here first hand about direct friends and family having their throats cut, hands chopped off in robberies, being shot while running from a car theft in the back, being thrown off trains, home invasions which are planned within gangs to the point they get rig of the dogs first, and a minority of posters are dismissing it as "hype" and "well London has crime too"? Wtf?

I've never met anyone in my international circle of large expat communities like Irish or Spanish with anything close to the lawless horror stories I've heard directly from the mouths of tourists and business travellers and native South Africans. Never once. It's not even comparable

Very late to the thread and came on here to say family members who lived in SA a couple of decades ago basically needed gated communities, drivers and did not not safe them. Some did not have the money that this was an option and all have left. Things have got worse @jujulabs post is totally spot on. Loads of friends and family from SA, none would choose to live there at the moment. It is a beautiful and complex country but no one I know from there would contemplate going back and the majority really struggle on a personal level as identifying as a national from the country.

No. Never. Colleague from South Africa has told me awful stories about life over there.

leaving aside the crime and poverty for a moment, what are the different cultural expectations ?

I have lived in Cape Town most of my life, I moved to the UK 7 years ago at 31 years old.

I would never go back or take my child there.
even if you have a job lined up there is a big chance the company won't last due to the power cuts, if you plan on working for yourself, you won't be able to get around the power cuts, I know a couple to left the UK last year to go back and now they are moving back to the UK because they are simply unable to work they are programmers so they need to be online.
for day to day- transport, don't think about public transport because from trains to busses they are all burnt or the cables stolen so they are unreliable.
car is the best but then you need to plan each route carefully, doors must be locked! and if anyone comes to your window at a stop street just DRIVE. because you will be hijacked.

you can't walk at any time of the day Never at night in the streets even to the shops or to the school.

I had 3 guns to my stomach / head and stabbed once by the time I was 22.

I have woken up with a man in my bedroom watching me sleep after he climbed up the drain pipe in the kitchen window and he had unlocked the front door.
I lived on the 3rd floor of a flat.

I seriously recommend you reconsider.

You can doubt me all you like, these are true stories unfortunately. I haven't heard them through a friend of a friend. I wouldn't waste my time typing out a work of fiction but I relayed them because they are very frightening.

I have heard them directly from the sources - my EX BF and his family. Don't think they all decided to lie or embellish about their family being murdered. It obviously was very traumatic and the reason they moved to the UK.

The other stories came directly from my colleagues - they all travelled as group on both occasions - I used to work in fashion and Cape Town is often used as a location for winter sun so they can shoot SS stuff off season so there would be several trips per winte.r

It was a large group of them together both at the bar and 2 people who got kidnapped were travelling with the same colleagues (different trip) they just weren't around at the time of the incident but I doubt they both dragged themselves across the tarmac and faked some injuries for the sake of a good story. They told me about these two occasions in one conversation we were having lunch once (happened before I worked there)

I highly doubt around 10 of them got together previous to that lunch and decided to do a mass 'lie' to me together.

Doubt all you like, credible sources.

@ZarZarGabor Definitely some over hyped stories here. Camps Bay is fine. Like everywhere else, park in secure parking and in lit areas.

The very sad thing is the state of governance. There was so much promise but little is delivered. The same party in power and little incentive it appears to make sensible decisions for all citizens. There’s obviously been some progress for black South Africans but it’s not anything like what anyone expected.

There was a black South African interviewed on the news. She said she had gone from being a third class citizen in a first world country to being a first class citizen in a third world country. The end of apartheid should have made her a first class citizen in a first world country.