To hate how mums always have to sacrifice their career...

Are you joking? Of course this happens.

Not working and depending on another human is precarious for all women/men. It's a risky choice financially, regardless of sex.

I'm sorry, but a career isn't something that pays £10.42 an hour.
Generally speaking, womens careers do take a bit of a hit, but if they're in an established career their earnings will not be totally outstripped by the cost of childcare, which it seems like yours would be every hour you pay for childcare.

Maybe you need to work evenings or train to do something that is better paid or a more flexible job.

"All women should have some level of self-sufficiency and not have to ask their husbands if they want to buy a pair of knickers or a new top."

Is this really what you think happens lieselotte?

You pay 2k a month and I get £11.50 an hour (L3, very experienced, SEND responsibilities). I am studying an MA which will make me L7 and too expensive for most nurseries but it's worth it to me personally. I will end up being paid as a L3 probably or be out of a job

However, a nursery is an expensive business to run, hence fees. The 'free hours' con doesn't help but I fundamentally disagree with the for profit model for something as important as early years provision. It will never deliver best quality or be inclusive because it's profit driven.

Yes in other countries they are considered to be early years teachers and paid as such. I think the ratios are larger though.

Their pay is abysmal I agree @SouthLondonMum22 but there’s also not always a big profit in it either - our nursery charges £60 a day (we’re in the NE) DS2 is there for 10 hours, that’s £6 an hour per child. Nmw is now £10.42 an hour 23 and over - most of the employees are contracted to 40 hours so salary of £21,600 plus ers NI and pensions now too, plus all of the overheads of the business. I had a look at their accounts on companies house and they barely break even the last 3 years.

Have you not heard the word? That's what women used to be - effectively the possessions of men. Couldn't own their own property, couldn't even have a bank account or a mortgage (and that was quite recent).

We've come a long way since then (though there's still plenty to do). Relying on a man for your wealth is a bad idea. All women should have some level of self-sufficiency and not have to ask their husbands if they want to buy a pair of knickers or a new top.

We pay £2k a month for nursery and and it disgusts me that those who work in nurseries get paid so little in comparison.

They absolutely should be paid more.

Yes I have had 2 cleaners who had both left jobs as nursery workers because the pay is just too low; the admin is ridiculous and the responsibility (if something goes wrong) is too much. These women have a massive amount of responsibility - far more than the vast majority of jobs / careers - and it's diabolical that they are paid peanuts for it. They need to be paid much more and it should be viewed as a skilled, specialist job.

@KateF

Please could we put the power of Mumsnet behind this, rather than judging each other.

Agreed.

This debate is as old as the hills, or at least the twenty odd years I've been on Mumsnet. I wish we could harness all the energy into campaigning for top quality, affordable childcare available to every family so that women have a genuine choice.

As a pp said childcare varies hugely in quality and at the moment the sector is a bomb waiting to explode. The profit driven business model is unsustainable and the 'free hours' expansion will break a lot of providers. Like teachers and nurses EYPs are overworked, underpaid and quitting in droves. I have had to leave the job I love and am good at because I don't earn enough to live on. I will be moving somewhere much cheaper so I can go back to it but many are leaving permanently and I can't blame them. Nurseries are losing their best practitioners and relying on apprentices and unqualified staff, spreading out the few L3s they have left. Children are getting poorer provision.

I want to see high quality care and education provided by educated, motivated people made available to all families. The most disadvantaged,who would benefit most, are not the children in nurseries. In my area few access the 15 hours funding for two year olds because childcare businesses put obstacles in the way as these children are a loss maker. In deprived areas nurseries with a lot of funded two year olds are going bust. How does this support women back into work or education?

Please could we put the power of Mumsnet behind this, rather than judging each other.

I know I'm on my soapbox but, much like Noble giraffe on the education threads, I don't know what else to do to wake people up to the crisis in early years.
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Maybe some women on here have internalised that they need to be at work to be properly valued?

So is that what your husband thinks? Or do all these overdramatic things like ‘living to work’ or having no value outside of paid work only apply to women and somehow men are exempt?
Funny that.

@DisquietintheRanks

It's annoying but fundamentally true - and if you think about it, it makes perfect evolutionary sense, both from a biological and sociological pov

It really isn’t true and there is no credible scientific evidence whatsoever for this.

@QforCucumber beautifully put. There's too many women that are willing to be ignorant that just because you are married you could well end up the shit creek.

Which mother gets to stay at home and be provided for when the parenting couple are lesbians?

Maybe some women on here have internalised that they need to be at work to be properly valued?

my husband values me because of our shared goals and achievements. My children value me for being there for them when they need me and being a stable role model. My boss values me because I’m bloody good at my job and said himself recently that if I handed my notice in they’d be up shit creek.

I like working, both dh and I come from broken homes. I lived alone from being 17 until I met him at 24, there is no way on this earth I’d allow myself to be wholly and completely reliant on him even now after 12 years together and happily married - I still always have that thought of what would I do if I was left alone.

OP has 1 child at soon and before you know it the other one will be going too. OP is trying to find a little something for herself... some of us go to work for the rest and to break the week up.

Can you apply as a Clinical support worker and do nights in a hospital or twilight shifts with agency OP?

So are you saying that biology is responsible for sexism? There was me thinking it was the patriarchy!

Regardless, luckily for us, we aren't "just" animals anymore, we are a bit more advnace and we know that women can do things just as well as men.

It isn't fundamentally true at all.

However, most women do work these days (even if it's part-time).

Exactly.
72% of women work but 45% work part time ( compared to 13% of men).
If a woman is 'economically inactive' (not my terminology) then it's generally due to caring responsibilities whereas for men it's generally due to ill health.

As ever, the devil is in the detail. Women are not participating in the labour market in the same way as men.... not even close.

It's annoying but fundamentally true - and if you think about it, it makes perfect evolutionary sense, both from a biological and sociological pov. Doesn't mean that women have to remain second class citizens forever but its not a coincidence that that's what we've fundamentally been in cultures world wide for time immemorial.

It's all about genes getting themselves into the next generation at the end of the day. Like it or not.

I wouldn't expect my husband to do something which I'm not prepared to do myself. Working is one of those things.

Also, too many women seem to have internalised that they can expect nothing from men. They are delighted if he loads the washing machine regularly or something.

The vast majority of women I see doing this are SAHMs or women working part time who are treated like domestic servants. Because their men - like you andn @Lambiriyani - think that man's role is to be out protected and providing and women are biologically meant to stay withn 10 ft of their kids. More women are working, yes, but it's primarily women who are SAHPs and it's primarily women who are part time. There has been no big shift... which is a shame.

I don't internalise pressure to work because I am a woman. I expect to work becuase I am an adult and expect to pay my own way regardless of my genetalia. Just as I expect DH to parent his kids irrespective of his.

@norestguests I don't disagree at all that many women don't demand enough from men.

I'm not sure that demanding they be supported and looked after is the solution, though.

I'd much rather be in charge of my own financial destiny and have a partner who is also in charge of his and have a team approach to domestic and child-related tasks.

Division of labour along "you do this, I do that" lines may superficially be seductive but it is only ever going to lead to one person holding all the financial cards in the relationship, which I think is a very slippery slope.

"I do them because I want to do them and because they benefit my family."

That's great @Thepeopleversuswork. So do I.

I agree women are still routinely questioned about childcare more than men. However, most women do work these days (even if it's part-time). I wouid say this cultural expectation on women is just as strong. Also, too many women seem to have internalised that they can expect nothing from men. They are delighted if he loads the washing machine regularly or something.