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To worry about the right wing?

335 replies

Swingstotheleftslidetotheright · 08/05/2023 16:14

I'm politically homeless at the moment in terms of who to vote for but morally I sit firmly centre/centre left. I'm very British with that it would seem.

I've seen over the last few years a very hard push left across social media and among the "chattering" classes which has seemingly come with a desire to shut down discussion, debate and conversation if it involves even the mildest of challenge to their way of thinking. What seems to be happening as a result of this shutting down and refusal to engage in a debate is a rise in harder line opposition, whereas before the two sides would have a somewhat heated and healthy discourse about an issue and come away mindful of each others views and with a solution in sight.

I'm noticing the louder the left shout the harder the, previously moderate, right push back and vice versa. Both sides appear to be getting more vocal and more extreme. I'm seeing this a lot around migration, feminism, the economy and crime. I'm now worried that this continued closure of conversation is going to lead us down a path of extremism - from one or both sides - and lead us to a dramatic and unwelcome rise from the far right.

Are we at a point of no return? Can we ever go back to being moderate and tolerant?

OP posts:
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Ourladycheesusedatum · 09/05/2023 11:22

SoTired12 · 08/05/2023 17:58

From my experience it's 'the left' who don't agree with free speech, unless of course it suits them. If you have any opinion/thought that doesn't completely align with the one they've been fed, they will try and shut the conversation down by screaming things like "bigot" "racist" "transphobic" and in some cases would happily have a persons life destroyed for 'wrong think'.

Yes agreed, it smacks of a purity spiral.

I dont know what happens at the end of a purity spiral, did the knitting one end well?

Garethkeenansstapler · 09/05/2023 11:19

SunnyEgg · 09/05/2023 11:11

Mn is particularly bad on this front tbh

Maybe there isn’t anywhere that can do discuss online anymore without it

ime rl discussions are better

I find they just make people uncomfortable. I have a very left wing woke friend who asked me to leave her flat because I disagreed that TWAW. I was happy to share my reasons but it’s like she’s accepted the mantra and was panicking that she would have to back it up.

Swingstotheleftslidetotheright · 09/05/2023 11:15

SunnyEgg · 09/05/2023 11:11

Mn is particularly bad on this front tbh

Maybe there isn’t anywhere that can do discuss online anymore without it

ime rl discussions are better

It has no impact on my life so it doesn't matter if they do or don't. I'll just put my phone down and ignore the thread if it gets too bad!

But it also proves my point and I have to ask if my concerns are valid. If a subject is uncomfortable the topic gets ignored and the insults come flying (not just on here I've seen it all over the internet).

OP posts:
SunnyEgg · 09/05/2023 11:11

Swingstotheleftslidetotheright · 09/05/2023 11:05

I'm waiting for it. I've already had several accusations levied toward me on this thread

Mn is particularly bad on this front tbh

Maybe there isn’t anywhere that can do discuss online anymore without it

ime rl discussions are better

DownNative · 09/05/2023 11:06

@Lonelycrab Voter ID itself is not strictly about electoral fraud and has never been singled out as a reason for it.

It was the Electoral Commission who stated:

"Evidence collected by the Commission in its review of electoral fraud revealed that fraud is not widespread in the UK but, despite this, a significant proportion of the public remain concerned that it is taking place.

This has the potential to undermine confidence in the electoral system if not addressed. The Commission considered views on a number of options to tighten the electoral system against fraud and is today publishing its final report."

So, it's about increasing voter confidence in our electoral system against a gradually increasing degree of polarisation amongst the population.

Jenny Watson, the then Chair of the Electoral Commission, went on to state:

"Looking ahead, the time has come for England, Scotland and Wales to move towards a requirement for voters to produce ID at polling stations. This would strengthen the system and bring Great Britain into line with Northern Ireland and many countries where this is already in place."

www.electoralcommission.org.uk/media-centre/id-needed-polling-stations-recommends-independent-watchdog

We can see in the case of Northern Ireland that voter ID has led to voter confidence in the electoral system. Even though electoral fraud was not widespread. Same goes for European states.

Perception matters. This is usually referred to as "optics" and widely used along the political spectrum.

Voter ID has already been before the UK Supreme Court as well. In short, it is legal, constitutional and democratic just as it is everywhere else. Free Voter Authority Certificates ensure there is no democratic infringement on the right to vote. This is based on Northern Ireland's free voter ID card and it must be said that the Electoral Commission have long held Northern Ireland up as an excellent example of voter ID being successful.

Ad Hominem attacks are never productive in public discourse and easily leads to further, deeper polarisation of society. Who here wants an increasingly partitioned society?

Not me, hence my statement applies to all irrespective of political views.

Abuse of elected representatives as wrong as abuse of the layperson. Such behaviour ensures the democratic system we enjoy remains under sustained pressure and attack.

One day, the system will break under that burden. And the result will not be pretty.

Speech is not entirely harmless....

Swingstotheleftslidetotheright · 09/05/2023 11:05

Garethkeenansstapler · 09/05/2023 11:04

Watch out, they’ll pop along now to say you’re lying because to show any human understanding of conservative voters means you’re a CLOSET TORY!

I'm waiting for it. I've already had several accusations levied toward me on this thread

OP posts:
Garethkeenansstapler · 09/05/2023 11:05

And the reason they don’t is because they would be hoisted on their own petard of cancellation and exclusion.

Garethkeenansstapler · 09/05/2023 11:04

Swingstotheleftslidetotheright · 09/05/2023 11:04

I have often found conservative voters much more willing to engage in healthy discussion, listen and accept a change of view than militant labour voters. So many labour voters loudly proclaim to never befriend a Tory, look on dating sites and you'll see "no Tory scum here!"

Yet you don't see it the other way around. Why?

Fwiw I'm not a Tory voter I just despair at the attitudes towards other human beings at times.

Watch out, they’ll pop along now to say you’re lying because to show any human understanding of conservative voters means you’re a CLOSET TORY!

Garethkeenansstapler · 09/05/2023 11:04

It isn't the Democrats who are eroding voting rights and the right of bodily autonomy to women, is it? So I must assume you are a big Republican fangirl.

And comments like this prove my point. It’s all just assumptions and accusations, stretching everything to the most extreme possible outcome.

Swingstotheleftslidetotheright · 09/05/2023 11:04

I have often found conservative voters much more willing to engage in healthy discussion, listen and accept a change of view than militant labour voters. So many labour voters loudly proclaim to never befriend a Tory, look on dating sites and you'll see "no Tory scum here!"

Yet you don't see it the other way around. Why?

Fwiw I'm not a Tory voter I just despair at the attitudes towards other human beings at times.

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MillicentBystander2022 · 09/05/2023 11:03

pointythings · 09/05/2023 10:51

@MillicentBystander2022 I reckon you live very near me...

It isn't the Democrats who are eroding voting rights and the right of bodily autonomy to women, is it? So I must assume you are a big Republican fangirl.

I was married to a US airman so I also watched things play out close up.

No, I'm not a republican fangirl at all 🤣 I hate guns, definitely believe abortions should be legal and not just for medical reasons and I don't think women are there to have babies and be wives.

Like I said, I don't think either side give a shit about the voters. I do think the left have more potential to cause problems that affect the wider population, though.

Garethkeenansstapler · 09/05/2023 11:01

stuckdownahole · 08/05/2023 21:45

Right and left have always talked across each other. The right believe that the left are deluded and naively idealistic. The left believe that the right are somehow lacking in empathy, even in basic humanity. The only way to break this impasse is to talk to people from the other side - and social media currently makes this more difficult.

Even posters on here don’t want to do that. If you so much as query any left leaning policies on here, you get piled on by posters who cite their own sad personal circumstances (eg disability) and say ‘You want to withdraw all support and just watch me die do you? DO YOU?’

MillicentBystander2022 · 09/05/2023 10:57

Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 10:43

Yeah, sure The Democrats have done nothing but cause destruction in the US
That's such a measured and balanced view.
As much as I detest UK Tory policies, even I wouldn't claim that they have never done a single worthwhile thing. Tribalism and blind dogma are the enemies of proper democratic debate and engagement.

Ok, fair point. Maybe that was an unhelpful phrase to use and i take that back. I stand by my other points, though.

SunnyEgg · 09/05/2023 10:54

Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 10:51

A lot of issues being characterised as left or right wing causes aren't, actually. There's plenty of gender woo on the right. There were lots of leftie Brexit voters.

I think they are broadly aligned correctly.

If you look at left wing v right parties and view on either

Swingstotheleftslidetotheright · 09/05/2023 10:53

Another one that’s not sure about what you’re getting at op, or if you’re posting in good faith. We’ve had a number of posters saying that they’re far more afraid of the far left or ‘wokism’ than anything from the far right, yet no discussion of what exactly they’re afraid of beyond that. Do it doesn’t seem like a thread where much balanced debate is going on, and you don’t seem particularly interested on them answering why they say that.

Im sorry you feel that way but my post is entirely in good faith and I'm interested in all replies.

I should perhaps have rethought my wording and said my concerns lay around the rise of extremism and the effects of modern day authoritarianism but that sounds more like an essay title than a Mumsnet thread.

The persistent closure of discussion, swinging conversations into strawman arguments etc happens across the spectrum and people will become more agitated by this. It's how extremist views bubble up. My other concern is the rise of antisemitism and racism again brought about through shutting down of moderate and rational discussion. The UK is a proudly moderate country (which is why Blair got elected but Corbyn didn't) but I can see how easily we could be pushed one way or the other. History shows us how easy it is for even the most gentle and moderate of people to lean into extremism

OP posts:
pointythings · 09/05/2023 10:51

@MillicentBystander2022 I reckon you live very near me...

It isn't the Democrats who are eroding voting rights and the right of bodily autonomy to women, is it? So I must assume you are a big Republican fangirl.

I was married to a US airman so I also watched things play out close up.

Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 10:51

A lot of issues being characterised as left or right wing causes aren't, actually. There's plenty of gender woo on the right. There were lots of leftie Brexit voters.

SunnyEgg · 09/05/2023 10:49

Extremes can be concerning but left wing can be equally so

The attempts at erasing biological truths - see NZ and Canada

And the use of politicians, media and law enforcement to back up the violence against women

It’s all push and pull back.

As a woman looking at the autocratic erasure of biological reality is concerning though

Lonelycrab · 09/05/2023 10:44

Another one that’s not sure about what you’re getting at op, or if you’re posting in good faith. We’ve had a number of posters saying that they’re far more afraid of the far left or ‘wokism’ than anything from the far right, yet no discussion of what exactly they’re afraid of beyond that. Do it doesn’t seem like a thread where much balanced debate is going on, and you don’t seem particularly interested on them answering why they say that.

I think this, from page 2 sums it up:

I note these concerns suddenly seem to those on the right after it seems clear there will be a Labour government and the regressive agenda of the last five years, whooped on and encouraged in the mostly right wing press with Brexit, insulting our neighbours, cod racism in Home Secretaries, bullying civil servants and declaring the BBC as effective enemy, just might be waking up to the idea that this "vampires in charge of the blood bank" style of politics is not too pleasant if you don't agree.

The current government are in effect UKIP. Moderate Tories have been ejected and we now have the likes of 30p, Braverman and Gullis have a prominent voice in the government and media. Imo, these people are really quite right wing.
Where or who are the voices from the left or hard left that are In equal prominence or power and given equivalent airtime?

We also have the Telegraph, Mail, Sun, and to a lesser extent the Express, they are (again, imo) to the right of the spectrum in viewpoint. Those four are a very large chunk of print media in this country. Certainly more than the Graun,I and mirror.

We have Geebeebies and talk tv, again on the right. Is there a left wing equivalent? Perhaps some might say ch4 news, I would disagree though. I certainly wouldn’t call them hard leftists. They’re certainly more credible from a journalistic pov that the first two.

So I don’t think that those on the right have been denied a voice or platform, quite the opposite, you have a RW govt, the print media in its pocket, you even have your own tv channels.

There are also ‘political’ parties such as Patriotic Alternative and to a lesser extent Reform gaining traction. If you look at the comments left by their supporters you will see a very strong often hard right viewpoint.

What are the left wing equivalents? Momentum is no longer a force. SWP?
Antifa?

but the direction the law heads in is usually in response to increasingly disruptive behaviour on the ground

Perhaps, specifically wrt disruptive protest you could argue that the law is responding to that, but a great deal of law being formed by this government is the opposite of what’s going on, on the ground. An example: the voter ID laws. There is no evidence ‘on the ground’ that voter fraud is at all a problem when you look at convictions, and yet this was pushed through at vast cost and disruption. Most people understand the true reason- to sway the vote. And also the retained EU law bill that has thankfully been watered down. Massive potential changes, seismic even, and the only reason being was that those laws were passed when we were EU members. “Constitutional monstrosity” is how this was described in the Lords and I agree.

With calling people “scum” I agree that personal insults are never really productive, yet is there any difference to calling people “tofu eating wokerati” or whatever the phrase was? I don’t think so. And besides, I think the actions of some of the govt, ie Mone as absolutely worthy of the description “scum”. She’s defrauded the taxpayer and is swanning round in a private yacht now at our expense after stealing from the taxpayer. I think that’s abhorrent.

Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 10:43

MillicentBystander2022 · 09/05/2023 10:37

I don't have a binary view on US politics. I'm still studying it and if I find something that changes my mind, I'll happily admit it. I just haven't found anything yet.

Yeah, sure The Democrats have done nothing but cause destruction in the US
That's such a measured and balanced view.
As much as I detest UK Tory policies, even I wouldn't claim that they have never done a single worthwhile thing. Tribalism and blind dogma are the enemies of proper democratic debate and engagement.

MillicentBystander2022 · 09/05/2023 10:37

Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 10:35

Your blinkered and binary view of US politics is exactly what's wrong, in the US and increasingly in the UK.

I don't have a binary view on US politics. I'm still studying it and if I find something that changes my mind, I'll happily admit it. I just haven't found anything yet.

MillicentBystander2022 · 09/05/2023 10:35

Living next to 2 USAF bases, it's hard to ignore US politics and how it affects us and the whole world, actually. The way I see it, and I could be wrong, but whichever way you vote, it means absolute nothing. They all create problems to keep us where they want us and then spend all our money 'fixing' those problems. Rinse and repeat.

If the far right do rise up and cause problems, its because the government on both sides wants them to and we keep falling for it.

Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 10:35

MillicentBystander2022 · 09/05/2023 10:26

I actually agree that the US would probably consider the tories far left wing. However, they seem to rewrite history a lot. I find it really strange that the Democrats have majority black voters when they were the ones fighting for the confederation and the republicans were the ones fighting against it.

The Democrats have done nothing but cause destruction in the US. Look at whats happening in Chicago right now. Also, Biden (or the ones pulling his strings) are twitching to get a war started. Its always with the countries who have something they want, always!

Your blinkered and binary view of US politics is exactly what's wrong, in the US and increasingly in the UK.

Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 10:33

MyopicBunny · 09/05/2023 10:29

This is a bizarre thread.

Not as bizarre as your post.

MyopicBunny · 09/05/2023 10:29

This is a bizarre thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread