To worry about the right wing?

I actually agree that the US would probably consider the tories far left wing. However, they seem to rewrite history a lot. I find it really strange that the Democrats have majority black voters when they were the ones fighting for the confederation and the republicans were the ones fighting against it.

The Democrats have done nothing but cause destruction in the US. Look at whats happening in Chicago right now. Also, Biden (or the ones pulling his strings) are twitching to get a war started. Its always with the countries who have something they want, always!

So a really right wing nation would consider our right wing less right wing? But as a PP said, in most of Scandinavia and Europe, our Tory government would be considered right wing. What's the point of only considering what right wing Americans think?

We are much more right wing as a country since Thatcher, who swept away the post war consensus on many issues, including the role of society. I personally think that was a bad thing, but her apologists paint it as her being our saviour.

YABU The whole country has moved way to the right in my lifetime, which is one reason us old lefties are pissed off.
You are wrong to frame the debate in terms of the left being uniquely intolerant and trying to shut down debate - that's very much a right wing game too, but they seem to have repeated the "nasty left" trope enough for it to gain traction.

Most "loony left" policies and ideas are perfectly normal in most of Europe where there is a greater acceptance of the existence of society and shared responsibilities.

The Tories are not right wing

Ok you just lost all credibility with me.

Well, I didn't at any point assert you or anyone claimed exactly that....did I?

No, and there's good reason why you can't quote me on that one which makes your comment a Strawman Argument Fallacy.

Additionally, I didn't argue "it’s natural and to accept curtailing rights". The thrust of my argument is that not only is there a constant counterbalancing of competing non-absolute rights we're talking about here, but the direction the law heads in is usually in response to increasingly disruptive behaviour on the ground.

Democracies are rightly concerned with how disruptive protests affects everybody else and we've seen instances where members of the public have come really close to breaking point vis a vis the behaviour of the protesters behaviour. Laws in all democracies evolve in order to address behaviours that create societal problems. Without it, we easily enter onto societal malaise.

What you're doing is attempting to oversimplify the entire issue. There are no easy fixes or discussions here.

What has been missing from the increasingly polarised discourse has been a recognition that the population have duties and responsibilities to society. In other words, its NOT all about what we believe our personal rights are.

Think about how your last comment there does not aid in decreasing polarised political discussion amongst the people.

That is not what I said. Read again more carefully.

@DownNative you can't say that because of Stop Oil et al it's acceptable to arrest people who haven't done anything illegal. That's thought crime. That's dystopia. By all means deal with actual disruption. But if we accept this, we accept authoritarianism. If we accept this, we are sheep.

@DownNative I don’t see anyone on this thread saying rights were absolute. You’re arguing from a made up starting point to then say how it’s natural and to accept curtailing rights. You sound more like Braverman than The Beatles.

It's about polarisation of society, group think and wrong think. As society becomes more polarised and people sort themselves into siloes or echo chambers which social media makes possible rapidly, the propensity for conflict and violence increases.

With that comes increases in security related legislation. Especially given the kind of disruptive protests the last few years. Reactions to disruptive protests is also problematic, e.g. woman who pushed Insulate Britain protester with her car was banned from driving for a good while.

Too many people are more concerned with their rights than their duties and responsibilities. Being unconstructive rarely improves things.

The calls from some for British people to copy the French is shortsighted given the violence that's happened in France this year. In 1968, France almost had a civil war due to agitators such as Danny The Red. So, it's not a good idea to copy the French. A fair few romanticise the French Revolution with "Vive la révolution" - people died during the era that phrase originates. No thanks.

As the Beatles sang:

"You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out"

Polarisation of society can all too easily lead towards destruction of lives and property. And, by extension, the State.

Stating so doesn't mean it corresponds to reality.

The fact is protests over the past few years has become much more problematic for society. The costs of policing them have increased by a considerable margin in response to the escalation of protest behaviour. £14 million is now spent on Just Stop Oil protests and £37 million was spent on Extinction Rebellion in 2019.

The right to protest is NOT absolute and these people have no actual right to disrupt others from going about their lawful business. This is something you're NOT addressing at all.

The law always evolves to address evolutions in human behaviour. In this case, increasingly extreme behaviour associated with protest groups.

Bear in mind this has always been excellent cover for militants as history shows. It's right to enable our security forces to more effectively deal with them under certain circumstances. The only argument then is how far should we go and even then that is very much dependent on the prevailing circumstances.

Oops typo omissions "of hold" I ment to say

Just speaking up about anything is like skating ⛸️ on very thin 🧊 ice..

It's like allmost like , well getting there , like middle East mindset of thinking when it comes to communication now, It's so heavy handed reaction,
from society, if someone doesn't agree with you ,
It's very unpredictable, and bloody 😱 scarey,
Its upsetting and like getting the wrath of God's or something, !
Harry Potters Author , experince from certain extreme Transwomen, section of society, about difference of biological women and transwomen springs to mind..

You can't even have serious debates at L.o.l. 😄 at universities, that's how ridiculous 🙄 these ideas 💡 have taken...

I thought universities were often 🤔 about debates ect...

This

@Swrigh1234 I don’t get it. I can tell someone that I won’t engage further. You’re welcome to engage and disengage with posters in your own style.

It's happening allready it seems

Polarisation of viewpoints ..

Even people wanting to carry posters /banners Not my king , Anti monotheistic, at least one was arrested, could be few or some others too,
not sure,

So right bedrock to Decomocracey right to protest has been eroded so much..
Sneaky back door way of going more control of the top players , The Gov ,ect

It's been happening for a while, but it was not so blatantly obvious back then,

@DownNative thanks for the explanation but the long and short of it is that the Tories are eroding those rights, such as they were.

By the way, did you feel the same about the liberty of millions being removed when they were locked in their homes, despite it having no benefit to public health? Or are only certain liberties worth protecting?

Ignored enough to actually post a reply to them.

Free speech, right to protest and association are not unlimited rights or anything like that. The Human Rights Act is clear on that.

The right to freedom of thought (Article 9) - is a mixed right. This means you can believe what you want - absolute right - but you cannot act on your thoughts and make them reality - non-absolute right.

For example, we shouldn't have a Monarchy or that terrorism is justified. Neither of these can be acted on lawfully.

The right to freedom of expression (Article 10) and the right to freedom of assembly (Article 11) are non-absolute rights. They can be restricted in circumstances that are lawful, legitimate and proportionate.

Freedom Of Speech is also non-absolute since none of us have a right to say whatever we want without consequences. We can be held liable or prosecuted for it.

People often make the mistake of thinking all of these things are absolute, guaranteed rights. They are not and never have been.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/public-order-bill-overarching-documents/public-order-bill-factsheet

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/16/policing-bill-britons-support-proposed-new-police-

Speaking as someone who's not lived in the UK for 28 years what I'd wish for you is a grown up, boring government that does not rely on personalities and three word soundbites but on long term, well thought out and properly funded policies for the good of the majority, leaving the minority issues such as trans and woke for people to work out for themselves. Sexuality and ideological thinking are not the concern of government.

Once you look at it objectively, it's easy to see. The right and left in terms of government are one and the same. Both sides use the public as pawns for their own agenda, and neither give a shit about us.

The left will destroy the world with wars, destabilisation and total capitulation. The right will destroy the world with elitism, poverty and population control. Lose lose, really.

When the public of left and right figure that out collectively, maybe we'll be able to unite and actually move forward and progress. Until then, may as well try and enjoy the bumpy ride to destruction.

Right and left have always talked across each other. The right believe that the left are deluded and naively idealistic. The left believe that the right are somehow lacking in empathy, even in basic humanity. The only way to break this impasse is to talk to people from the other side - and social media currently makes this more difficult.