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AIBU?

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To be utterly dumbfounded

121 replies

Swansandcustard · 18/04/2023 08:17

DD17 is currently almost 1 year into A Levels at 6th form. She’s doing Classics, Ancient History and Sociology, with a view to go into either Archeology or Anthropology etc.

Yesterday the Classics/Ancient Rome teacher informed them they had basically been headhunted by the local private school, who were offering a lot more money and would fund their masters.

This teacher is the only non-private one of these subjects in our county. It’s very hard to recruit to, they’ve said they might put an English teacher in as substitute. The class is moving onto the Aeneid in the Autumn and they’ve been told they might have to teach themselves it. The departing teacher is leaving her material on Teams ‘in case of the worst’.

So, potentially 2 of DD’s 3 A Levels are fucked. Classics is acknowledged to be one of the most difficult A Levels as it is.

It’s horrific that the state school system is so unwelcoming to teachers that this kind of thing can go on. As annoyed as I am, I don’t blame the teacher. Why wouldn’t they take the offer?!

OP posts:
TheaBrandt · 19/04/2023 08:17

To be fair independent schools aren’t immune to good teachers leaving either

IdealisticCynic · 19/04/2023 07:30

I’m sorry this is happening to your DD. I agree switching subjects at this stage would be difficult and wholly unfair.

Obviously you need to talk to the school. They might already be in conversation with the private school about “borrowing” the teacher or planning some sort of arrangement.

You could also consider reaching out to the private school to see if they might be willing to offer your daughter a scholarship for her last year, if she is academically gifted.

You may also want to join with the other parents to see if some sort of group class can be done by a tutor which shouldn’t be too expensive (although I accept it’s not fair).

If the worst comes to the worst, it’s worth considering that classical civilisation A Level (which is what it sounds like she is studying, rather than straight Classics which involves Latin and/or Ancient Greek) isn’t actually that tough and is something she can self study. Not ideal, but not that tricky. If there was a significant Latin or Ancient Greek component it would be much harder. But CC is considered a relatively easy subject (I did it many, many, years ago and it was mostly reading and remembering). Hopefully it will be significantly easier for your DD than most if it’s something she really loves as she will enjoy doing it. So try not to feel too downhearted.

sashh · 19/04/2023 06:52

Talk to the schools, both the one DD is at and the independent the teacher is going to.

There are several options.

The school might get a new teacher - unlikely but stranger things have happened.

Pupils could take AS this year then do a different A level next year, not ideal but the school can support UCAS applications saying the teacher left.

Leaving teacher might be able to teach an evening class / holiday class at the old school.

The school the teacher is going to might allow your DD's class to attend, this is more likely if the class are looking at getting good grades because it boosts the independents results.

HoppingPavlova · 19/04/2023 06:52

I wouldn’t get too bent out of shape personally. I had one that took physics and didn’t have a teacher final year, although they were private but there just wasn’t a spare person hanging around to apply. They just did diy using a textbook and internet resources. The school did a deal with a local uni to do all the practical lab stuff there over a few weekends and paid the uni tutor who supervised it. For exams they did a deal with another private to hand their exams over and they paid a teacher there a fee for marking. That did not include taking the kids through where they went wrong though, they had to figure it out themselves. The kids literally diy’d it though which was a handy skill and what is really required at that age in prep for uni. Mine has ASD/adhd and many other letters as well but was able to do it. They all worked in together, pretty sure the rest of the cohort had the same issues. They all did really well in it and did not seem to have been disadvantaged at all.

cyclamenqueen · 19/04/2023 06:35

@ShipSpace private schools pay shed loads of VAT, ( unlike state schools who can reclaim their VAT) what they do not do is charge VAT. I work in finance in an independent and have also done the same job in a state school .

roundcork · 19/04/2023 06:33

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the request of the user.

Pottedpalm · 19/04/2023 06:32

@Kleptronic @ShipSpace Ion re-reading, it’s the point made about the school attracting ‘adverse publicity’ which jarred. ‘Private school recruits top teacher’… surely that is what they are meant to do. I don’t think
they have an obligation to consider the students this might affect in any or all instances.

TheaBrandt · 19/04/2023 06:20

That collaboration does happen. Dds friend at the local state is doing drama a level at the private other 2 at the state. His parents are paying but just for that a level. Could some accommodation not be made ?

Feel your pain op not nearly as bad but Dd had 3 amazing teachers one for each a level largely why she chose to stay on. They have all left. They have been replaced to be fair but the ones that left were far better. Agree it’s gutting. We are going to pay one of the leaving teachers for a few sessions as a private tutor.

Pottedpalm · 19/04/2023 06:11

Kleptronic · 19/04/2023 00:36

@Pottedpalm re. the private school’s obligation - I refer you to @ShipSpace who was admirably succinct.

As a teacher in both state and private schools, a parent whose children attended private schools and a well informed person on this topic, I am fully aware of the obligations of those private schools which are run as charities. My point is that offering employment to a teacher does not mean they are responsible for the current pupils of that teacher, whatever the circumstances.

Kleptronic · 19/04/2023 00:36

ShipSpace · 19/04/2023 00:03

Private schools are charities.

They do not pay VAT. They have approx 80% relief on business rates. They do not pay tax on donations.

All this is funded by the tax payer.

Therefore private schools have an obligation to give back to their communities, and this is exactly the sort of opportunity for them to do that.

@Pottedpalm re. the private school’s obligation - I refer you to @ShipSpace who was admirably succinct.

ShipSpace · 19/04/2023 00:03

Pottedpalm · 18/04/2023 23:01

Why is it the problem
of the private school? What obligation do they have?

Private schools are charities.

They do not pay VAT. They have approx 80% relief on business rates. They do not pay tax on donations.

All this is funded by the tax payer.

Therefore private schools have an obligation to give back to their communities, and this is exactly the sort of opportunity for them to do that.

sweeneytoddsrazor · 18/04/2023 23:48

57 is a huge number of pupils for what is a niche A level. My son couldn't stay on at his school 6th form because despite having more than 1 qualified teacher not enough pupils signed up to do the A level 5 being the minimum number required

Subject - Maths

SueblueNZ · 18/04/2023 23:25

So they want a teacher with a max of 6 years experience… For classics and ancient history…
not sure they have any intention of filling that position tbh.
I agree. And in what world does a (state) teacher have to commit to being available on weekends?

dinmin · 18/04/2023 23:15

Notellinganyone · 18/04/2023 21:55

Do you mean Classical Civilisation? If so it’s not considered a particularly difficult A level. Latin and Greek yes but Class Civ is relatively straightforward.

Yeah, this. A History teacher or interested and dedicated English teacher should be totally fine

PaigeMatthews · 18/04/2023 23:14

Swansandcustard · 18/04/2023 14:48

Advert went live 5 days ago - 28-36k with requirement to be available weekends and a degree in the subject.

So they want a teacher with a max of 6 years experience… For classics and ancient history…

not sure they have any intention of filling that position tbh.

Pottedpalm · 18/04/2023 23:01

Kleptronic · 18/04/2023 10:13

I would ask the school to approach the private school with the proposal that the private school helps maintain its charitable status by enabling the state school students to finish their A Levels, as otherwise adverse publicity may be damaging to the school's reputation.

Why is it the problem
of the private school? What obligation do they have?

SueblueNZ · 18/04/2023 22:47

Upthread the OP responded:

@Clarinet1 you’ve nailed it! The school offered it, therefore shouldn’t they be under obligation to ensure the full teach is delivered?
How can the school possibly do this? They cannot magic up teachers who do not exist. The state school should not have offered the subjects in the first place as they are simply not sustainable. Now though, probably the best the school can do is look at online study options for the affected students.
The Latin term "caveat emptor" comes to mind. If there is one teacher in a school offering a niche course - and it is known that there are very very few teachers of the subject nationally - the student and her parents should have considered the risks of retirement, better job offers, maternity leave, death of that one teacher.
Yes, the state/private divide is shit (as it is here in NZ) but that just means that state schools should avoid offering risky niche subjects as they are unlikely to be able to match the salaries offered by private schools.
There were two subjects I wanted to study when I was at state secondary school but couldn't. One wasn't offered to boys only and one wasn't offered at the school. I felt aggrieved but I just had to suck it up.
As a former teacher of a niche subject - very far removed from the ones you are talking about - I know that the departing teacher will be feeling awful about the impact on her students. It's great that you do not resent her decision. I also fully understand that your daughter is hurting and spooked by this change and I hope that some solution can be found for her and her classmates

DelphiniumBlue · 18/04/2023 22:20

How awful for your DD. The worst part of the problem could be that DD has very little choice but to self-study.
She will need grades from 3 A levels for university, and if she cannot continue with one of her existing 3, it may be too late to take up a new subject, and the school might not allow/be able to provide a cram course to enable to her to take a new 2 year A level subject in one year. If she transfers anywhere else, they may well require that she does only 2 year courses. So she may end up having to spend an extra year to do an A level that isn't her first choice. That has knock-on effects in terms of free funding for foundation courses or retakes ( obviously hoping she won't need to retake, but sometimes it's necessary eg in case of accident/emergency).
Speak to the school and find out what they are proposing, speak to the private school, and speak to the current teacher personally.

Fairislefandango · 18/04/2023 21:59

It's good that you don't blame the teacher, OP. The truth is that the school couldn't really have done anything about this except refuse to run the course in the first place. And why would they have done that when they had a teacher? It's true that there are massive teacher shortages across the board due to the state of schools atm, but I imagine that Classics is always hard to find teachers for in the state schools that offer it.

Notellinganyone · 18/04/2023 21:55

Do you mean Classical Civilisation? If so it’s not considered a particularly difficult A level. Latin and Greek yes but Class Civ is relatively straightforward.

Partyandbullshit · 18/04/2023 21:50

The issue is the fact that money trumps everything, every time, and more and more, if you can’t go private you just don’t get a look in. This is the diametric opposite of ‘levelling up’.

This, sadly, is modern Britain. Blame the Tories. It’s disgusting and nothing new for them. In fact, it’s deliberate.

MumsyMalone · 18/04/2023 19:40

Schoolplacechoicemyth · 18/04/2023 09:40

"Those fields don't have good career prospects anyway. She'll need a PhD and there might be 500 job openings a year. All very competitive."

This. Archaeology pay is piss poor, the work is insecure and project/contract based. Jobs in museums & academia are terrifically hard to come by & even then aren't well paid given that most people applying have masters and phds from highly ranked institutions.

This is absolutely not true! I went from an archaeology degree into a finance job specifically because they wanted a humanities background. Left after 3 years because I hated it, and as it happens I’m now a lecturer in Classics (which includes ancient history and archaeology). OP, don’t worry. Lots of our students don’t have any background in Classics, and when they graduate they go on to a variety of successful careers because they develop transferable skills in research, writing, and critical thinking.

Swansandcustard · 18/04/2023 19:30

I realise there can’t be unreasonable notice periods imposed on teachers. My angst is from it being MY CHILD that’s affected, not a hypothetical situation, but also the fact that state education is so shit for teachers that again moneyed privilege can just buy them out. The private school was exploring why they have such large numbers taking the subject? It feels like they’re taking the only non-private teacher to add to their own portfolio and presumably thinking they’ll catch some of the students that would have gone to the state sixth form.

I do not blame the teacher. One bit. The issue is the fact that money trumps everything, every time, and more and more, if you can’t go private you just don’t get a look in. This is the diametric opposite of ‘levelling up’.

OP posts:
Partyandbullshit · 18/04/2023 18:40

Swansandcustard · 18/04/2023 12:40

@Clarinet1 you’ve nailed it! The school offered it, therefore shouldn’t they be under obligation to ensure the full teach is delivered? This really isn’t as simple as ‘oh well, change subjects’ - apart from the struggles I have mentioned Dd has, even IF she switched - she’s missed the best part of a year already. I also don’t think it’s a fair take to say that we have to expect this in ‘niche’ areas. Again, it smacks of these subjects are only for those wealthy enough to pay for it. The private school is taking the only available classics teacher in the county (the others are at the….wait for it…..other private schools).

Not heard from school yet. I would imagine there’s a number of concerned parents as several kids were aiming for Oxbridge.

Have you thought this through?

If a school needs to give pupils and their parents notice that they are to discontinue a given subject, that notice would likely need to be more than 6 months. The incoming lower 6th would need to know, the school would need to look for a replacement and have failed, etc etc.

Then, students already in L6th would need to complete their U6th.

So a teacher would need to give approx 18 months notice to resign. For whatever reason: maternity, new job, relocation, retirement. And what about if they’re sick or suffer an accident?

As you say, the teacher is within his/her rights, the school has to accept the decision.

Some provision should be made for the current L6th cohort, though. A supply teacher, cooperation with a local school still providing the subject. These students can’t be abandoned mid-A Level.

Point being, the solution here needs to be constructive in looking for workarounds, just for a year. Not blaming or finger pointing.

Dixiechickonhols · 18/04/2023 17:59

Swansandcustard · 18/04/2023 17:52

There are 57 students who will be affected by this. Still no call from the school

Gosh that’s a lot. I was imagining a handful. That’s probably a good thing as they can’t brush 57 under carpet.
Have you managed to contact any other parents.