Closing all private schools would benefit state schools

North Korea is an excellent example of what would happen. The elite don't suffer from their policies. Kim Jong Un isn't exactly starving like his people are, so the same applies in education - the children of the elite go to Swiss finishing schools.

Phineyj

But as I said there are no private schools in North Korea but if you are rich enough and have the ability then you send your children elsewhere for schooling.
Then when they return they are in a better position than others who stayed in the state system.
Which sort of proves the point that levelling the playing fields by removing private education doesn’t work.

For those that think Finland has the “best” education system, it’s not quite as straightforward as that.

Finland has one of the highest, if not the highest, rates of mental illness in the EU.
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/7d8fd88e-en/index.html?itemId=/content/paper/7d8fd88e-en

The statistics used to rank countries with the “best” education vary widely. Some studies look more at educational attainment where countries in the Far East perform very strongly, and certainly outperform European countries.

Other studies put more emphasis on small gaps between higher and lower attainers which Finland has. Finland’s school’s don’t stream by ability. Everyone is taught together. I’m not sure that this system stretches the most academic pupils as much as other systems, so there might be an argument that you don’t get as many children excelling. Aiming for everyone to be average isn’t necessarily “best”. We need people who excel in their respective fields. It’s how the human race has developed.

I don’t think there is a perfect system. The UK system isn’t perfect and nor would it be if private schools were abolished.

Sort out the state schools so that they are as good as the private schools and people won't need to send their kids private. The whole thing of "there's too much inequality, we should knock everyone down to the lowest common denominator so everything will be equally shit" is a stupid idea.

I guess I know the answer.

The Finns would be doing wholesome stuff in a forest.

Our lot would be either on a screen or up to no good or possibly both.

I don't know about the North Korean elite as a whole, but the current leader studied at a private and a state school in Switzerland. There's an interesting article about it on Politico.eu. So he did himself experience the type of education on offer in a rich developed country.

I did some more reading about Finland too. As I suspected, having met a few Finns, it's a much more socially and culturally homogeneous (any tiny) economy than ours.

The school hours are so short there. What do the kids do the rest of the time? Could we deal with our number of kids roaming about pre 9.30, after 2.30, and what would we do with the 0 to 6 year olds?

A genuinely equal quality education would be a big threat to some vested interests in our anxious, classridden, overcrowded country.

EmmaGrundyForPM
Looking at how Finnish schools operate, later start times, less testing, less homework, shorter days and not starting school till 7 years old and the inference that you can get your child tested for Dyslexia, ND etc without the complete battle you have with state education in this country I think definitely makes for a better learning environment.

I do think we need to rip up the way we educate children in the U.K.

By 8 years old my Dd was struggling and by 7years old my Ds had been written off.

At 7 years old a Finnish child would have only just entered a class room.

Fwiw I chose a particular private school for Dd because there wasn’t the choice of a school who’s emphasis wasn’t on academics in the state sector

Also anyone watching Ted Lasso would know that Finland does have private education

Again I ask which countries don’t have private schools outside of places like North Korea (certainly levelled the class divide there) and communist regimes.

EmmaGrundyForPM

Finland does have private schools.

Finland's got about 8% the population of the UK with 16 inhabitants per km2 (we've got 276).

It's a relatively "young" country too - only been independent since 1917. It's hardly going to have historic private schools dating back to medieval times and presumably got to have a national conversation about what education should look like as it extracted itself from Russian influence.

It's a daft comparison. Apples and oranges.

The reason I would choose a private school for my kids is so that they won't have to be educated alongside the little shits I had to tolerate.

This isn't the reason we've paid for private school but I take your point. Given some of the horrendous behaviour I see from kids on the tube every day, I'd hate to be a teacher.

We seem to have a growing number of kids with no respect for authority or other people and parents who let that attitude pass unchallenged. In fairness, it's not a state-only issue but private schools perhaps have more freedom to manage out the trouble makers.

It's also hard for schools with a high percentage of kids that don't speak English as a first language and aren't proficient in it. This was the case for 70% of the kids at my nephew's school which must make teaching even more challenging.

Perhaps Finland doesn't have these issues? Because poor behaviour and discipline are a barrier to academic achievement, no matter how good the school.

Where would the funding come from for the increased pupil numbers in state school? It would either have to come from increased taxes or decreased spending in other areas. Money doesn’t grow on trees. It wouldn’t just magically appear into the state system.

If staff pay and conditions are so much better in the state system, why are there strikes and a recruitment crisis? There are not lots of teachers moving from the private sector into the state sector. Many private teachers are more likely to move into other jobs than transfer to a state school. In fact a lot of the teachers who Mumsnet seem to think are “unqualified” actually came from private industry originally.

All that would happen is that those who pay for private education now would either move abroad (and they tend to be higher earners paying an above average amount of tax which would then be lost) or they would use their money to pay for extra tuition to get their children into selective state schools and increased house prices in catchment areas of highly performing schools.

I’m failing to understand how this benefits any pupil currently in the state system.

Finland.
No private schools, no mandatory exams and the best education in thd world.

I've posted this link above, but posting it again as it's a fascinating read. There's no reason why the UK couldn't do the same if the political will was there.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/09/10-reasons-why-finlands-education-system-is-the-best-in-the-world

Which countries manage without private schools?

The reason I would choose a private school for my kids is so that they won't have to be educated alongside the little shits I had to tolerate.

If state education was better there would be less people choosing private schools. The first choice of school in my town in the early 1970s was the grammar. Those that passed went and there were very high rates of Oxbridge entrance. For those that failed, anyone who could afford it sent their DCs to private schools and the local private schools developed strengths in the arts and sport. The state option for the academic kids was brilliant, but unfortunately not matched by the schools for those who didn't pass. We need to find a way to improve education for all children, but until there is a good state system, we need private schools.

Exactly: appetite and funding. Of which the UK has neither when it comes to education.

If state education was better in everyway then there'd be much less desire for private school and it'd be much easier and more publicly acceptable to abolish them.

Other countries manage it when there’s the appetite for it. Not to mention funding, and a way to do it without violating laws.

gwrachod

Maybe somewhere like North Korea might be able to do without private education and maybe a communist regime or 2 but would love to see which countries outside of these have managed to shut down every single one of their private schools and have taxation similar to ours

If they have taxation then that blows the theory we will just soak up all the thousands of private school pupils into the state system without too much issues

Can I ask what would happen to schools like my Dd attended where the emphasis wasn’t on academics

As it has been said, repeatedly, other counties manage it.

Of course there would be logistics involved, but nothing insurmountable.

The fairly insurmountable issue is that in the UK too many people want to have public services well funded, but with US style low taxation.

They're also happy to get involved in a class war arguing with fellow working/middle classes about the rights and wrongs of private education, and are happy to remove parental choice on the education they choose for their children, but given the Conservatives have been in power for over a decade, there's clearly not enough popular support for the sort of widespread social changes that would be required to give all children an excellent state education.

Too many people have bought into the idea of the deserving and undeserving poor, so won't vote for anyone who has a platform of solid social reforms to undo decades of intergenerational harn and intergenerational poverty (which needs to be in place before schools can get on with educating instead of plugging the gaps caused by social issues).

The super wealthy have international options so anyone thinking the parents who choose Eton and similar will start sending their DC to state schools is kidding themselves.

As it has been said, repeatedly, other counties manage it.

Of course there would be logistics involved, but nothing insurmountable.

Where will the support staff go?

Where will the teachers come from for those who are home schooled because of SENs and the lack of space currently in schools to cater for these children. Some of whom have been turfed out of state schools because they cost too much money.

Most private schools don’t really have the type of teacher who is qualified to teach someone with SENs and currently there isn’t enough teaching staff to teach them so where do these children go

If you get rid of all private schools and expect everyone to go to a state school, you will get all of those who are currently being home educated to go to school and whilst your theory is that schools will have more money, they will also have more pupils. The same ratio of pupils to £s as they have now except more teachers to employ, more portacabins to rent or buy and all the wiring and plumbing in to do not to mention the planning permissions and plans and architects and surveyors they would need to pay.