Closing all private schools would benefit state schools

Do we think nepotism greased Melissa Benne’s path through life? Classic socialism - deny other’s advantage whilst hoarding your own. Hypocrite.

You are incorrect. They are not allowed to charge and make a profit for the basic education element. There are Finnish schools which charge a fee, presumably for things they offer over and above the basic education. Have a look at the International School of Helsinki as an example. They charge €16k a year.

From what I’ve read, where there is a difference is that all children in Finland benefit from state funding, so private schools are partly funded by the state.

So, perhaps we should look more closely at the Finnish model given you think it works so well. Private schools in the UK could still exist, but every child in that private system could benefit from state funding, which is what apparently happens in the Finnish system.

There would then be a justification for adding VAT to school fees, because parents could only be charged for things offered over and above the basic level of education. I would be more than happy to pay VAT on school fees if I was getting the benefit of state funding for the basic education element. The current £6,500 per pupil state funding equivalent would be more than the VAT on the fees for most privately educated day pupils.

This thread is bonkers. The UK seems to be one massive race to the bottom nowadays 🤦🏼‍♀️

Having said that, I’m really interested in the massive business opportunity I’d have with creating an “after school enrichment programme” for those displaced from the private schools in my county. From 3:30 to 6:30 we’d be able to cover an array of topics. I even have an appropriate building in mind 😂

If I’m saving £40k per year on private schooling, that’s a shit ton of money to channel into tuition.

OK, so the state school gets extra funding for the extra pupils... from where exactly? Oh yes, by increasing taxes.

We sent our kids private, but we are not super-rich and wouldn't send them abroad for schooling, we'd have to put up with the local school.

Our reasons were the poor local schools - we are in an average area, where the local state school is not great and has various behaviour issues. I don't think this is particularly down to the teachers, nor do I think that it would be greatly improved by extra money or an influx of better-off parents. Let's face it, the nasty wee scrotes who are the trouble-makers (and who are now very difficult to expel or even suspend) are not going anywhere, and disproportionately affect the rest of the pupils.

Oh, and don't forget, if you're going for equality, you'd have to sort out the inequality between state schools, which is also affected by money of course, via house prices. We could afford private school, but couldn't afford to move to a comparable house in a decent catchment...

Private schools do exist in Finland. What is banned is basiceducation for profit.

I would be supportive of a ban on making a profit from education in the uk. I know there are some for-profit schools but it would be much easier to create a pathway for these to become not-for-profit social enterprises than it would be to wind down all the charitable ones.

At the moment around 600,000 out of 9million pupils' education is not paid for via taxes, it is paid for by their families. So if you put those extra 600,000 children back into the state system without increasing the total.pot of funding then the amount of funding per pupil would go down. To increase the pot either money is taken from elsewhere (social care, arts, policing??) or taxes would have to go up to cover the cost. Finland and other Nordic countries pay far more in taxes per person and have far lower populations so their entire model for funding education is different to the UK.

If anything more private schools would take the pressure off state school budgets. However a lot of state school problems aren't about money. Its about a culture of educational attainment or access to opportunities which are valued differently by parents who are prepared to pay for their children's education. The same is true but to a lesser extent for parents that pay for extra curricular classes, tutoring etc to get their children into grammar schools. It would take many generations to shift the culture towards education for all being seen as a privilege and not taken for granted.

Finnish private schools are funded by a combination of government contributions and charitable funds. Parents are free to donate to the charitable funds.

The main reason Finnish schools are so successful is a combination of having very small local community schools, an easy to learn language and a lack of time-consuming testing.

The average 4-hour day, and the schools only being compulsory from 6-16 makes education cheaper for Government to fund. Parents need to pay for pre-school and wrap-around care when required although many take much more time off when the children are young. Parents are often stay on paid maternity leave until the children are 3 years old.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g
Agree with this and there's the massive problem of recruitment and retention in the state system already.

Banning private schools is the sort of thing that sounds nice, but to me falls into the 'simple but wrong' line of thinking because most of the time people don't think enough about the big problems and what would be required.

As has been pointed out by many current and former teachers on this thread, there is no way of forcing teachers currently working in UK private schools to go and work instead in UK state schools. Many would choose instead to retire or to leave teaching or to become private tutors or to move abroad. A great many used to work in the state sector and left to work in schools with better behaviour and discipline so they could actually get on and teach.

Thank you for the podcast recommendation! Only halfway through episode one but omg the drama!

The real answer is that no one knows.

The disadvantages of closing them are legality, encouraging rich to game system in other ways (catchment areas etc) and the need to raise more taxes to fund the extra places.

The advantages, on the other hand, is a far greater capacity for state schools to fundraise from parents, wealthy and involved parents encouraging state schools to do better and releasing more strong teachers to teach and lead state schools.

And, of course, closing the, would be ‘fairer’.

the government pays schools per pupil, that is how schools are funded, so more pupils is more pay

More pupils = greater expenses and needing more of everything. The money to pay the extra expense has to come from somewhere: either by increasing taxes or reducing the amount of money for other government-funded services.

Sometimes, I really do despair of MNers' inability to think.

I know, I was agreeing with you.

How would specialist schools like for the deaf or royal ballet or cheethams music school fit in.
Even if they were somehow state acquired they’d still need entry criteria otherwise they’d be pointless.

Apart from what you say not making an iota of sense.
How on earth would a not government run school (I.e private school or independent school) run with no fees being charged and no income from the government as they aren’t a state school

It is not illegal to charge fees for education

It is illegal to make a profit from education

Did you not read my post about the use of the word private? It's illegal to charge for mainstream education in Finland, even if the school is "private" (ie not run by the government).

The point is, if the political will is there, it can be done.

I agree. There's another thread running at the moment started by a modern languages teacher who is worried sick at the contraction of modern languages degree teaching in the UK. One reason for this is that there is so little MFL teaching in the state sector and universities are pushed to take as many students as possible from state schools. Yet another example of how poorly designed targets lead to unintended consequences. My son went to an independent school where MFL teaching was a great strength and most sixth formers (all male) took at least one MFL subject to AS if not A level. (A while ago now.) This is a good thing. We need more linguists, not fewer.

You could say the same about music teaching (another strength at that school), which is withering on the vine in the state education sector because it's not valued and won't help with Ofsted and league tables.

The same in Yugoslavia. Supposedly socialist, yet the urban middle classes sent their children to gymnasia, and the working classes sent theirs to vocational schools.

I'm guessing here, but one obvious reason why mental health might be a problem in Finland is the long dark winters with very little daylight. Another excellent reason for getting children out of school, away from screens, and into the fresh air to enjoy what little sunlight there is.

I promise you that if independent schools have to close, a very big % of teachers will rather change jobs instead of teaching in the state sector.

EmmaGrundyForPM*

Someone needs to tell the Steiner schools and the international schools and all the other private schools that they don’t exist.

Why have reality get in the way of a good story

The article is wrong. Private schools do exist in Finland. What is banned is basic education for profit.

https://www.aacrao.org/edge/emergent-news/private-education-is-not-prohibited-in-finland

The main point though, is that the UK is not Finland. Something working in one country, does not necessarily mean that another can adopt it with the same success. It’s never as simple as ‘just be like them’, or ‘tbh ye can just be like us’.

To make such a change require political will, widespread public support, funding, and a legal way to implement the changes. The government can’t ‘just’ ban private schools, any more than they can ‘just’ strip them of charitable status.

@Kennykenkencat I think it's a matter of semantics around the use of the word "private". In Finland, 2% of schools are not government run, and so are described as private (as opposed to state) but they are not allowed to charge fees. It's illegal to charge for education in Finland.

Not according to this article, which is an interesting read on the topic of schooling and education

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/24/the-only-way-to-end-the-class-divide-the-case-for-abolishing-private-schools

DdraigGoch

the North Korea “levelling up” comment was sarcastic

Although for the majority of the population of North Korea Everyone has the same as everyone else
Absolutely nothing.