To wonder about CSEs v O Levels

For many of us who did O levels and then went on on to teach our specialist subjects at different levels, the difference in standards between O levels and GCSEs is quite stark. I also believe our A levels were more difficult in many ways than those of today. The difference is that the older exams approached the syllabi with the subjects in depth rather than breadth, which is the approach today. At music O level, one of the papers was for music history. We had two set works - in my year, it was Winter from The Four Seasons by Vivaldi and Brahms’ Academic Festival Overture - and it was an essay paper. We would be asked a specific question about each of the set works and a general question about the background to them. For example, having answered the question about Winter, the general question would be along the lines of “Describe the rise of the solo violin concerto in the Baroque period.” In those days, it was also only the top sets that sat the literature paper in English. Everyone else sat the language paper only. One of our novels was Far From the Madding Crowd by Thomas Hardy, which I loved. I have been told that this would be too difficult for most GCSE students today. We were also expected to read the whole works we were studying, not the segments that appear to be accepted today. Languages were different, too. We had a dictation element. A short piece would be read out on tape and we had to write down exactly what we had heard. Every word had to be spelled correctly and every accent in the right place. You lost marks for every mistake you made and could end up with minus marks. It was not unknown. This was the one element of the exam where I was at a disadvantage. I have had a hearing impairment most of my life and the only concession I had was to sit near the tape recorder. I really needed to be in a separate room with the teacher reading it more slowly and so that I could lip read if necessary. I passed French O level, though, in spite of this. The language oral exams were totally unseen - you could be asked about anything; unlike today when topics are prepared in advance. I remember my friends who took languages at A level studying literature by the masters of the countries of the language they were taking, so French students would study Moliére, for example, and those taking German would study Goethe or Schiller. This has not been the case for decades. As for graded music exams, these have also gone in the same direction. When I took grades six and seven piano, we had four pieces to learn. In grade eight we went back to three pieces - but the B piece was a complete three movement sonata and not the single movement of today. The amount of scales was phenomenal and the aural tests were also harder.

I think it's probably true that O-levels were intended for the top 20%. They replaced School Cert after the 1944 Education Act, and were intended for grammar school children at a time when many secondary modern children left at 15 - in order to accept a place at grammar school, my parents had to sign a statement that they would keep me at school to 16, beyond school leaving age.

After the school leaving age was raised in 1973, the proportion of children taking an exam at 16 increased.

I did my O levels at the time when the exams were starting to change. For most subjects, we did either O levels or CSEs - the latter were for the less academically able children, as previous posters have said. And a grade 1 CSE was equivalent to a C grade O level.

However, in Chemistry and History, we did the 16+ - an exam that was supposed to replace the O level and the CSE - I think it was the forerunner of the GCSE. Basically, when the exam was marked, if you got a CSE grade 1, your paper was then reassessed to give an O level grade too - so in Chemistry I got a grade 1 CSE and a B at O level, and in History, I got a grade 1 and an A at O level.

I suspect that this was too clunky, which was why the GCSE was developed.

I went to a huge, 14 form entry secondary in the 1980's. I did 7 0 levels and 3 CSE's. Most pupils did CSEs while more academic pupils pushed towards sixth form and university.

There were also more practical options like RSA typing, metal work and woodworking qualifications. Those who really struggled with written work could do rural studies.

There was some good things. There was probably a better range of subjects and Pupils could leave school earlier and get a job. There were plenty of manual jobs and office work that didn't need exams.

But dyslexia and other neurodivergence was mostly missed and a lot of people we're funnelled into low level jobs who could have achieved more given support and opportunities.

Ooh that was a bloody good guess, although this excludes those who weren't entered for either.

I don't think I levels were the top 20%.

My school had 3 streams. Top stream O Levels. An unnamed other stream for CSEs, more average academically thinking of my friends in there. The two streams were roughly the same size. Then there was a much smaller third stream for the children below average academically/with learning disabilities. So I'd estimate 40/40/20 % in each stream. As others have said, there was an overlap though of the top CSE grades and lower O level grades.

I was about to say the same thing. There are some reknowned and some very old Universities that aren't in the RG.
Plus you still needed A levels to do degrees at a Polytechnic - you couldn't sign up for a BSc with 3 CSEs or anything! They did do courses other than degrees too which may have had lower entry requirements, I don't know for sure but my DH went to a Poly and needed broadly the same qualifications as he would have done to do a similar degree at a University.

Both those statements can be true - that O-level maths included things that don't appear nowadays till A-level, and GCSE maths contains stuff that you didn't meet till A-level. As you say, curriculums change.

There were 30 odd universities in all, not all of which are Russell Group today. The likes of Sussex, Kent, Lancaster, Essex started life as Universities. The way you phrased your post made it sound as if all the non-Russell Group universities are ex-polytechnics.

Pre 1992 there were lots of universities that weren't/aren't Russell Group.

English universities all accepted CSE1 as an O level C but many Scottish universities didn't.

I worked in university admissions in the 1980s

People often claim that O level Maths covered huge swathes of current A level Maths. Not true. My kids did stuff at GCSE Maths that I never met until A level. Coverage of topics varies across the decades. Its futile trying to compare them.

In my 70s comp we had an O level band (top 2 or 3 classes) , CSE band , think it was about 5 classes and then another band , but not sure what they did

A CSE was equivelent to a the lowest pass O level which was a C. (D was a fail by less than 5 %

56 and I did O Levels, two in the early November sitting and the rest in May/June the following year. The exam board also trialled 16+ in Biology so I received a dual O Level and CSE grade for that. All grades were through exams, no coursework at all. We also had very little support from school for revision and were pretty much left to our own devices apart from a few handouts.

when I looked at my dcs Alevel maths and further maths syllabus last year all the topics in the 2 subjects were covered in the old Alevel single maths syllabus. I took ALevels in 1986.

I’m 65 and when I sat O levels they were graded 1 to 6, with 1 being the highest. The letters came in later. My grade 1 maths wouldn’t impress anyone now because the numbers work the other way with 9 being the best.

CSEs had course based elements of assessment as well as an exam I think - O levels purely exam based - so which was harder depended on your learning style. Only a grade 1 CSE was equivalent to an O level.
You could also do some kind of 'easy' CSE - I can't remember what they were called, but it was a reduced syllabus, but the maximum grade was a 3.

I was the last year to have Calculus in the Olevel maths syllabus. I had to teach it to my sister when she did Alevel maths as her teacher just assumed they had done it in Olevels

Depends when he did them, and the school.
Comprehensives were being phased in through the seventies, and some made it really hard to do O levels rather than CSEs. Some subjects I have both.

School wouldn't let me do O level maths, so have CSE.
Always promised myself that when I'd qualified as an accountant, I'd do O level maths just to prove I could. V Hacked off that by the time I'd qualified O levels weren't around any more. Did an MSc instead (not in maths)

Yes, I did an S level alongside A levels.

I did A levels in the 90s. A levels then were a similar standard to O levels. We used to do old O level papers for A level exam practice.

Also at my sixth form you could only do ALevels if you had at least 6 Olevels grades A-C and in the subjects you wanted to study.

Someone mentioned S levels my teacher told us they were between ALevels and the 1st year of a degree

I did several 16+ exams. Sometimes, I think I imagined them so I'm glad to read others did them as well. 😂

haven't rtft but this is my experience of those exams. I took O levels in 1984 and only the top 3 sets sat them the other 7 sets either sat CSEs or nothing. I also believe you could only apply to universities (termed the Russell group ones nowadays) if you had O levels. Polytechnics however would also accept CSEs. Also when my sister sat GCSEs 2 years later and you could for each subject get the old Olevel grading A-Fs and the CSE grading 1-4. If you got A-C you also got a CSE grade 1 certificate

O levels were for the top set students and CSEs were for the less bright.