To think we cannot afford to support Ukraine anymore

@Saysomething1234 🤣🤣🤣 I’ve responded extensively to you throughout this, as have many. You very selectively choose the ones you want to respond to and ignore others, and then play the victim.

People are frustrated because you didn’t come here in good faith. You didn’t want to find out if you were being unreasonable, you wanted to wave your dick around because you think you’re cleverer than everyone else, but your arguments are lazy at best, disproven at worst.

It’s not really worth arguing with people like you because you’re just contrarians other than - crucially - to show that your bad faith doesn’t go unanswered. Wouldn’t want anyone to think that there’s no response just because you’re so very clever. No, you and your fellow travellers must be called out at every turn.

@Saysomething1234

Still no alternatives to Ukraine support? just a miserable rant.

@Saysomething1234 oh you’ve resorted to calling people ‘dear’ again I see to try and patronise them. God, you’re predictable.

The all caps and your inability to respond to many of these points other than with ‘and your point is’ makes you seem a little hysterical, DEAR. The points you do respond to, you don’t respond with anything new, do you. Almost as though you’ve got a script.

Literally no one said you didn’t have a right to voice your views, but again this is the whingey victim mentality coming to through.

And yes, 31% of about 1000 people on mumsnet. Not exactly representative, DEAR.

I just want to point out that the 28% who cba to vote at all, tacitly agreed to accept the result, whichever way it went!

Even if we accepted this sweeping statement as fact, it doesn't actually affect the point made. Which is that if it's important enough to talk about the percentage of people in the UK who voted for Brexit, it's important enough to get the stat correct.

I just want to point out that 52% of the population of UK did NOT vote for Brexit.
72% of registered electorate voted -17 mil for Brexit.
That's below third of population

I just want to point out that the 28% who cba to vote at all, tacitly agreed to accept the result, whichever way it went!
People were asked a question re Brexit, and answered the best they could with the information they had available at the time. Many felt the EU was too big, too inefficient, unwieldy, resistant to change and filled with useless failed politicians on a gravy train. And that it also gave our own politicians a useful place to hide. All that is still true! In leaving, there was a hope for greater accountability. Where brexiteers went wrong was in trusting that the people we had elected to represent us, had a plan and knew what they were doing.

To say that people who voted Brexit have no right to object to further mismanagement of the country ever again, is pretty disgusting. To the poster who said that, let's hope you manage to go through life being perfect.

Jesus wept!

Having grown up and lived through the Northern Ireland Troubles, let me explain the differences between us and Ukraine.

Northern Ireland wasn't invaded at all. The Northern Ireland Government in 1969 requested the aid of the British Army as the RUC was close to collapse due to exhaustion.

Ukraine, on the other hand, WAS invaded by an aggressive country with tanks, hundreds of thousands of soldiers, missiles launched at Ukrainian territory including civilians.

Already that highlights how utterly ridiculous it was for you to attempt to compare Northern Ireland's Troubles with the war in Ukraine.

Northern Ireland's people weren't successfully terrorised by Republican and Loyalist terrorists in any serious numbers. Over 38 years, a little over 4,000 people died. Hence, we and the Security Forces could easily absorb their campaign of murder.

Ukraine, in sharp contrast, has a much higher death toll in less than a year according to the UN:

"From 24 February to 4 December 2022, OHCHR recorded 17,181 civilian casualties in Ukraine: 6,702 killed and 10,479 injured."

Northern Ireland was NOT a war by any means. It was a low level terrorist murderous campaign that ultimately failed.

Ukraine IS a war by every measure going.

In Northern Ireland, we could go to school and people could go to work without much problem. In Ukraine, normal life cannot go on due to the aggression of Russia and their missiles, for example.

We could live a normal life in Northern Ireland for the most part.

Given all the above, we in Northern Ireland could have referendums in 1973 and 1998 where people could cast their vote unmolested in the secrecy of the ballot box. People very largely stayed where they always lived with small numbers of exceptions and even then they almost all stayed in Northern Ireland. My own family have lived in a town in North Down for at least 150 years.

Compare this with the sight of Ukrainians leaving for numerous European countries due to the devastation of the war Russia forced onto them.

It's painfully obvious why a referendum in Ukraine on territorial integrity and independence could NOT take place in a way that satisfies international law.

Referendums in Northern Ireland were and are fully compliant with international law.

Please, don't make such ridiculous, baseless and sensationalist comparisons between the Northern Ireland Troubles and the war in Ukraine as forced on the people by Putin's Russia.

It's offensive to us and the Ukrainians. Not to mention utterly bollocks!

It's Orthodox Christmas tomorrow, isn't it? Sounds like someone's started early.

I just want to point out that 52% of the population of UK did NOT vote for Brexit.
72% of registered electorate voted -17 mil for Brexit.
That's below third of population.

@Saysomething1234 what discrimination?! You won the referendum, the Brexit referendum leadership has been in charge of the country since 2016, and you’re still whinging about it?! I’m so baffled by this victim mentality of brexiteers. Your side won, it turned out to all be bullshit and it’s going to fuck over the poorest in society the worst (the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg however have made millions betting on the UK economy tanking).

I am also in no way surprised you are deflecting onto Brexit because you have been unable to seriously answer any questions asked of you in this thread.

Get off your soapbox and look around; you’re wrong at every turn on this. Every single time your arguments get dismantled you move onto something else.

By my count you’ve now tried:

• We can’t afford to help them as a country
• You pay lots of tax and you don’t want it to go there
• Ukraine is a kleptocracy
• Also nazis
• It’ll take us too long to diversify the energy market
• Russia is too strong and will win anyway
• The west is hypocritical because it’s invaded places before
• Not everyone who is against Ukraine is a bot
• Discrimination against brexiteers?!

This is literally, literally the narrative playbook of the Kremlin. I think it’s time we called you out as either very easily influenced or a troll. I am really struggling to believe you are a real person at this point.

Putin is provoked by weakness. A stronger response to his invasion of Crimea

This is like taking candy from a baby, honestly.

Oh hang on and I was only looking at conflicts between two nuclear powers.

This is fun! Any advances on the Kargil war?

('We're scared of their bombs so ultimately we should give them whatever they want' is an... interesting approach.)

Actually I lie. 1999.

First Chechen War, Soviet–Afghan War before that?

Sorry - in response to @Saysomething1234 at 11.27.

OK, your turn. When has appeasement ever worked?

Clearly trying to find a compromise solution over Crimea and the talk of 'needing to improve relations with Russia' failed miserably, not only for Ukraine but for places like Syria, Venezuela, Sudan, CAR and, er, Somerset.

Your concerns are not being 'cancelled', your previous choices are being judged in the context of the complete dogs dinner that you and your fellow quitters have left us in. Feel free to extoll your concerns to your hearts content, nobody is stopping you, but don't be entirely surprised if your arguments do not gain traction with an increasing majority of people who now see Brexit as nothing more then a massive mistake.

I'm trying to think of any point in history when appeasement of an aggressor has ever worked out in the long term.

@Saysomething1234 this conflict had been brewing for a heck of a lot longer than 10 years.