To think we cannot afford to support Ukraine anymore

To be fair to the PP, a lot of people did predict this broad outcome (without the year of three prime ministers etc) before the fact. It was all dismissed as project fear.

However, relitigating the referendum campaign isn't terribly interesting. You seem to accept that the implementation of Brexit has been less than ideal. In that context, why is Ukraine the focus of your concerns around what the country can and cannot afford, rather than more enduring savings that could be achieved through other policy decisions, including the consideration of a closer trading relationship with the EU and removing some of the trade barriers that are costing us so much?

As I was saying this at the time, and so were others, when it's us making this point by definition it can't be hindsight bias. Don't use terms you can't understand. It's interesting that you're apparently a Brexiter though, given that the UK leaving the EU was such a positive thing for Putin. Another thing that some of us knew in 2016!

Meanwhile, have you done your Afghanistan history homework yet?

@ImAvingOops, Labour are about 20% ahead in the polls at the moment...

Yesterdays Yougov voting intention poll has labour on 46% and cons on 25%. Granted we are a few years out from a general election but I get the distinct impression people are definitely clamouring, at the very least, for not another Conservative government.

Yes, there is a lot wrong with the country. I am in my late 40s now and have seen a number of governments of varying competence come and go. However, what the current mob have done during their 12 years in power has caused more damage and suffering then anyone could have imagined. It is weird state of affairs when you look at the dying days of Majors government, with the scandals and sleaze and they come out looking like statesman of the first order in comparison to the self serving venal clowns we have now.

The UK pointing out what is wrong with the EU at the moment is like you pointing out to another driver that their brake light is broken and there is a chip on the windscreen while you are driving about in a car with no working brakes, flat tires and belching smoke out the back.

@Saysomething1234 but it's not just about hindsight but about what we do going forward. For example we could make ourselves a lot richer again by signing up to a closer trade arrangement with the EU. This would make a lot bigger difference to the state of our finances than withdrawing support from Ukraine.

Withdrawing support from Ukraine would save us no money at all. If Ukraine lost we would have to spend more on defence to deter the Russians and might get involved in a war to defend the Baltic states. If Ukraine won we would have seriously damaged our relationship with most of the world's democraciel

I have not suggested anyone losing the right to vote again if an election/referendum outcome does not work out positively so I am not sure what you are reaching for here. I am however, suggesting that the opinions of people who voted enthusiastically for something that was articulated well in advance as 'bad' across the board by various trade bodies, industry specialists and other experts in various fields are not best placed to be seriously listened to again when they in equal measure not only refuse to admit the way they voted was in any way wrong and start moaning about the very things they were warned would happen. I am not saying you can't have an opinion, just don't be surprised if I don't want to listen to it and I pick up my drink at the bar and move somewhere else.

And yet no one seems to be clamouring for a Labour Government.

There's a lot wrong with the country and I think it's bigger than than the people who voted for Brexit. We all just get called ignorant bigots and told we've no right to a further opinion, that it's all our fault. But the rot in this country started long before Brexit - the vote result was people trying to address it, I think.

Post Brexit, there's been a lot of ignoring that what was wrong in the EU in the first place, is still wrong. And while I agree it would have been better to fix it from the inside, it was very resistant to reform since there were too many politicians doing very well out of it as it stood. Our own politicians included.

Obviously anyone can comment, it's a free country. But those who by their decision to vote Leave chose to make us all poorer are setting themselves up for criticism if they then have the bare faced cheek to talk about what we can't afford. We can't afford it because of what they did!

It might be slightly different if you were right about nobody being able to predict the Johnson and Tory shitshow, but you're not. It was obvious in 2016 that a Leave vote was going to empower the right wing of the Tories, that Johnson had only chosen Leave to further his own ambitions and that he'd be a terrible negotiater, and most of all that there was no possibility of a Brexit that didn't make things worse for the country. People who didn't realise this should've done a better job at informing themselves.

I appreciate things are getting a bit emotive on here (myself included) but I guess it is extremely hard to take seriously the 'we don't have the money and our country is going to the dogs' rhetoric from the very people who are quite literally part responsible for the impoverished state the UK finds itself in.

Exactly.

@Saysomething1234 Why dont you take a moment and play a game of Risk with a few friends instead of shouting in capitals on mumsnet.
Either you are a russian propagandaist or someone with very narrow view on global issues.

@DanseAvecLesLoups there were politicians on both sides of the political divide who both supported and opposed Brexit. And I do think it's relevant that although the 52% in favour were not 52% of the population as a whole, the 28% of the population who didn't vote, clearly didn't feel strongly in support of remaining either, or they would have said so. Does this mean that only the minority who actively chose to remain, get to comment on what should or should not be done next indefinitely? Because that's not democracy either.

I don't think anyone who voted could have predicted the whole BJ fiasco or the utter shit show that has been the Conservative Party since

I might be misreading but that sounds bit aggressive to me. I was just correcting yet another wrong fact, I am not arguing about rights or wrongs there

ImAvingOops

I appreciate things are getting a bit emotive on here (myself included) but I guess it is extremely hard to take seriously the 'we don't have the money and our country is going to the dogs' rhetoric from the very people who are quite literally part responsible for the impoverished state the UK finds itself in. Not all 'remoaners' were chest beating EU-philes thinking the status quo was 'perfect' and I certainly have some sympathy with some of the points you have articulated above. I was always a firm believer that we were better off inside the worlds largest and most prosperous trade block and single market acting as agents of change to fix the above problems rather then isolated on the outside. As the whole Brexit mess unfolded it was perfectly obvious prior to the referendum that there was no plan post Brexit, just the the usual public school financially insulated charlatans making promises that anyone with a sprinkling of knowledge on the matter saw were undeliverable. There was no coherent road map post Article 50, just lots of vague options on the table (EFTA, Canada+, Swiss, Norway option etc) only backed up with the British exceptionalism that all other European nations would just agree to whatever we cherry-picked. Sadly for the likes of Saysomething1234 she/he is exhibiting all the classic language and attitude of a text book anti ‘Johnny Foreigner’ Little Englander, taking zero ownership of the dogs dinner they helped create while moaning about the new hardships we face. Breixteers are free to make their thoughts on the mismanagement of the country known but don't be too surprised if you get flack for enabling the same wankers doing the mismanaging who brought you your ill defined pyrrhic victory.

Hey, @Saysomething1234, I've answered lots of your questions. Could answer either of my most recent ones directly to you?

Either in the interests of two-way discussion or, you know, basic manners.

If any of your points were reasonable, you wouldn't be shouting.

Unless what they mean is give Putin everything he wanted in the first place and strengthen him for his next endeavour negotiated settlement? Which as we've discussed isn't really an alternative because (a) Ukraine is a sovereign nation and (b) unilateral UK action would achieve nothing except weakening us as a country and scuppering those lucrative trade deals with our allies that are somehow going to replace our lost Brexit GDP.

We always have a responsibility to help out innocent people who might die because they live under a dictatorship.

Otherwise we can't expect the same help for our children if the worst should happen to us.

@Saysomething1234 what really pisses me off about people like you is that you are the sort of people who vote Tory, have no empathy for anyone and then wonder why the NHS is fucked. It's fucked because that is what you and others voted for!

Have you read the thread at all? Even a little bit?

No you didn't... i checked, so you write nonsense to try and cover up your stupidity.

Everyone comparing this to WW2 and listing propaganda like "we have to do what's right!" is hilarious, keep supporting what the master tells you, the end result will surely benefit you, not just line their pockets more

Slava Ukraini (hope I've typed that correctly). Long live Ukraine.

No, you and your fellow travellers must be called out at every turn.

Agreed.

This forum gets a lot of visitors, which is of course why Putin's dick riders and employees are here in the first place. The nonsense has to not only be countered but the people spouting it have to be shown up. Fortunately in this instance, they've done a pretty good job at the latter themselves.