Page 20 | To think we cannot afford to support Ukraine anymore

Saysomething1234 · 2023-01-04T21:38:13+00:00

This may be an unpopular opinion but it is annoying me to no end and NC We have a littany of issues crying out for funding domestically - NHS broken. Economy going down the drain. Pound down 20% in one year. Public services collapsing, Education system requiring re-investment, high taxes driving talent out. We can keep blaming our politicians but someone needs to prioritise where money goes - and no one is willing to talk about this Yet we are spending hundreds of billions in supporting Ukraine in a war which has nothing to do with us. Yes we are morally supporting them but is there no amount which will be too much? We are paying both directly (through weapons and aid) and indirectly (through huge energy subsidies - last totalling north of £200bn) - we need to stop this spending, reduce energy prices, stop this craziness How is this war something we can afford on the basis on principles and why aren't we more aggressively pushing for a negotiated settlement? We cannot afford this. It sucks for Ukrainians but this is not UK's bill to foot. AIBU?

Original poster

Saysomething1234 · 05/01/2023 08:19

EndlessRain1 · 05/01/2023 07:45

yeah, you are right. Let them die and let Russia continue to break international law without consequence, let's not waste our money.

We’re still allowing them to die. Many here are supporting the logic that we are arming them so that they fight the Russians and wear them down - and in the process many hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will die. This will save UK lives since the Russians won’t go any further.

so spare me the lecture about saving lives. It’s about saving british lives as the cost of a proxy war elsewhere using Ukrainian lives

OP posts:

DanseAvecLesLoups · 05/01/2023 08:12

LeccyBillShill · 05/01/2023 03:58

The sanctions regime against Moscow has hurt Europe much more than Russia. Germany is on its knees. The West made a huge blunder when it tried to turn Ukraine into an anti-Russian stronghold, leaving Moscow no other choice than to intervene.

The Ukraine conflict has changed the global geopolitical map - as the West introduced new sanctions against Russia, European political elites for some reason, became enthusiastic about destroying Russia economically and politically while separating it from the EU by creating a new iron curtain.

The West had been pushing Moscow back from its old imperial borders for several decades and Moscow fears that this is not enough for the West. Parts of Ukraine, such as Sevastopol have very strong ties with Russia. Its naval base is vital to Russia as it offers all year access to the Mediterranean and beyond. Compare that to other bases that sit frozen for much of the year and the strategic value it has to Russia. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine 'allowed' Russia to maintain its base in Sevastopol to 2042 in exchange for discounted natural gas. This was the Kharkiv Pact.

The West made a strategic mistake when it tried not only to remove Ukraine from Russia’s sphere of interest, but also to turn it into a large population and military base against Russia. It is no wonder that when Ukraine looks Westwards towards the EU and NATO membership that Russia sees this as a red line and those that ignore this have done so at their own peril.

Russians have genuine and justifiable anxieties about this and could not be expected to sit idle in the face of these threats.

What a grubby apologist for Russian aggression. But 'the West' made Russia do it. Do you believe that any former Warsaw Pact country has the right to self determine its own future and direction of travel or should they forever remain within Moscow's sphere of influence? Why do you think pretty much every eastern European country has tilted towards the EU and or NATO? Did 'The West' make them do it or did the legacy 40+ years of direct oppressive control from Moscow have something to do with it?

Due to sanctions Russia is an economic basket case, capital flight, collapsed rouble, it's youngest and brightest have fled, default on debt payments, foreign currency reserves depleted, Europe divesting it's energy dependency, manufacturing crippled due to lack of semiconductors and Russia being forced to sell its oil and gas at knock down prices to India and china. Yes, Europe have taken a hit but to suggest they are worse off is deluded.

Pothoswithasparkle · 05/01/2023 07:50

Pinkflamingogo · 05/01/2023 07:41

Yes actually.

He hasn't done that well with Ukraine has he? He doesn't have the man power, morale among soldiers, resources (etc) to invade further countries. It just wouldn't happen.

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He hasn't done well because everyone chipped in with countries like Poland and Latvia being top donators.
Sudden turn of rvents and win would massively boost their morale...

Pothoswithasparkle · 05/01/2023 07:49

MarshaBradyo · 05/01/2023 07:42

Yeh agree that’s not true

Some posters aren’t really listening to what’s going on

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Tbh my family and I also expected quicker end (they are in EE).
Considering at one point Ukraine had more tanks than they started with, even after losses, and it turned out Russia's equipment is probs the one used to invade in 1968... We expected shorter run. But then, they have millions and millions of poor to throw at it.....

Museya15 · 05/01/2023 07:46

Don't forget the young men arriving on the shores of the land from no war torn country.

EndlessRain1 · 05/01/2023 07:45

yeah, you are right. Let them die and let Russia continue to break international law without consequence, let's not waste our money.

Roselilly36 · 05/01/2023 07:44

Always money for war.

MarshaBradyo · 05/01/2023 07:42

Untitledsquatboulder · 05/01/2023 07:40

we were told it would be over in days

No we weren't.

Yeh agree that’s not true

Some posters aren’t really listening to what’s going on

Pinkflamingogo · 05/01/2023 07:41

AlmondBake · 04/01/2023 21:51

Do you really think if we stop supporting Ukraine and they lose the war, that Putin will stop there? Seriously?

Yes actually.

He hasn't done that well with Ukraine has he? He doesn't have the man power, morale among soldiers, resources (etc) to invade further countries. It just wouldn't happen.

Untitledsquatboulder · 05/01/2023 07:40

we were told it would be over in days

No we weren't.

BoredofEducation · 05/01/2023 07:37

Saysomething1234 · 04/01/2023 22:18

because of short sightedness of politicians to fight a ruinous war - also because diplomacy doesn't sell in the public's eyes, aggressive right wing bravado macho-ism does (as can be seen clearly in this thread) where everything is black and white

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A little late to this, so apologies if this has been addressed, but I’d welcome the OP’s views on where the shades of grey are in this situation? What potential legitimacy of the invasion we may be overlooking? Where the room for compromise is?

Kokeshi123 · 05/01/2023 07:29

I'm all for helping refugees but I agree that we shouldn't be committing money we haven't got to Ukraine, beyond the humanitarian aid.

This is literally the worst of all possible worlds - paying oodles of money to help refugees while doing nothing at all to deter the aggression that leads to the exodus of refugees in the first place! It guarantees that ever-increasing sums will need to be shelled out to support the growing numbers of people who will flee when Russia decides to invade this country, and then that one, and then another one...

Herroyal · 05/01/2023 07:21

Here’s what we can’t afford - Russia trampling all over its neighbours, maybe Finland or a country further West next? While we stand by and watch, then end up fighting in WW3.

our government is destroying our NHS because they want to privatise it. Not because we’re training the Ukrainian army.

SirMingeALot · 05/01/2023 07:20

MysteriesOfTheOrganism · 05/01/2023 06:19

I think we should be doing far more for Ukraine. I'm sure Putin would be willing to do a deal of ceasing hostilities in return for land. But after a pause to re-arm he'd be back for the rest of the Ukraine - and other countries too. No, this is a conflict that Europe has to take a strong stance on. Appeasement didn't work in World War 2, so it's not worth considering now.

Yep.

This is solely a war of aggression by Russia and the only way the west is remotely culpable is because we didn't push back earlier.

The choices are to deal with this now or later, when it will be worse. It follows that any argument we can't afford to is bollocks. Actually, we can't afford not to.

AWaferThinMint · 05/01/2023 07:18

The pain we are feeling now as we support Ukraine would be nothing compared to the pain we might feel if Russia stomped across Europe in our direction, and don't for a second think that is in impossibility. Improbable, possibly, but not impossible.

We have a moral duty to support our neighbours. And, if we must be selfish about it, why would anyone help us if we were threatened and attacked, and we'd not shown solidarity and allyship with others.

Northernsouloldies · 05/01/2023 07:12

I will cut to the chase op other posters have explained the ins and outs to you. Your op was a crass and selfish perspective of the war. The wot about us guvnor attitude is a despicable view to hold considering the emerging war crimes the Ukrainian population have and still enduring.

MysteriesOfTheOrganism · 05/01/2023 06:19

I think we should be doing far more for Ukraine. I'm sure Putin would be willing to do a deal of ceasing hostilities in return for land. But after a pause to re-arm he'd be back for the rest of the Ukraine - and other countries too. No, this is a conflict that Europe has to take a strong stance on. Appeasement didn't work in World War 2, so it's not worth considering now.

DownNative · 05/01/2023 06:19

Saysomething1234 · 04/01/2023 21:57

Ukraine is not in NATO. we have no obligation to defend it. sucks for ukraine but pretty simple.

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The UK, France and USA promised Ukraine in 1994 or so we'd protect them from Russian aggression in exchange for them giving up their nuclear weapons.

If we hadn't promised this, Ukraine would not have given up their nuclear weapons and Russia wouldn't have dared to invade.

NATO member or not, we have an obligation to help Ukraine.

ittakes2 · 05/01/2023 06:17

Sorry but you have your head in the cloud. This is nothing to do with helping Ukraine and everything to do with stopping Russia becoming more powerful and thinking it’s ok just take over other countries. It’s a security risk.

vera99 · 05/01/2023 06:03

From the US point of view they degrade a historic enemy,get to dump surplus munitions and test in depth the Russian military capability and pivot Europe to US LNG and get Europe to up their defence spending which was a big bug bear of Trump. As a quid pro qou come the eventual peace American corporations get their hands on the potential economic prizes all without losing a single US citizen. Compared to their other wars its their best deal ever. Sadly we are all the losers our old world order of cooperation, peace and prosperity is probaly lost for a generation.This war will probably go on for years sometimes hot and sometimes in abeyance and in essence started back in 2014.

knittingaddict · 05/01/2023 05:46

We have no choice. The alternative is unthinkable and the stability of the world at stake.

Listen to a few podcasts and you might think differently OP. Ukraine the Latest is a good starting point and I highly recommend it.

Nat6999 · 05/01/2023 04:27

Greenshake no it isn't the money saved could be used to provide arms & other support for Ukraine.

vera99 · 05/01/2023 04:03

We were told it would be over in days.It wasn't we were told Putin is ill and dying he isn't. We were told Russians would rise up and get Putin out they haven't. We were told Russians are running out of missiles they aren't. We were told the ruble and economy would collapse they may be having difficulties but the Russians seem impervious to pain. Since the US and NATO seem unwilling to give Ukraine game changing munitions and tech it seems our involvement is just prolonging the agony. The difference in WW2 is we declared total war and fought the aggressor to the bitter end and that ultimately in the case of Japan involved nukes.At the moment its looking like Ukraine is getting destroyed and Russia is just shrugging and doubling down. Something has to give.

LeccyBillShill · 05/01/2023 03:58

The sanctions regime against Moscow has hurt Europe much more than Russia. Germany is on its knees. The West made a huge blunder when it tried to turn Ukraine into an anti-Russian stronghold, leaving Moscow no other choice than to intervene.

The Ukraine conflict has changed the global geopolitical map - as the West introduced new sanctions against Russia, European political elites for some reason, became enthusiastic about destroying Russia economically and politically while separating it from the EU by creating a new iron curtain.

The West had been pushing Moscow back from its old imperial borders for several decades and Moscow fears that this is not enough for the West. Parts of Ukraine, such as Sevastopol have very strong ties with Russia. Its naval base is vital to Russia as it offers all year access to the Mediterranean and beyond. Compare that to other bases that sit frozen for much of the year and the strategic value it has to Russia. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine 'allowed' Russia to maintain its base in Sevastopol to 2042 in exchange for discounted natural gas. This was the Kharkiv Pact.

The West made a strategic mistake when it tried not only to remove Ukraine from Russia’s sphere of interest, but also to turn it into a large population and military base against Russia. It is no wonder that when Ukraine looks Westwards towards the EU and NATO membership that Russia sees this as a red line and those that ignore this have done so at their own peril.

Russians have genuine and justifiable anxieties about this and could not be expected to sit idle in the face of these threats.

Delorestormborn · 05/01/2023 03:28

If the west doesn’t continue to support Ukraine then the likelihood of China invading Taiwan increases considerably. If that happens we are all f*ed. It might happen anyway but the wests response to Putin has at least made the Chinese pause.

You should study history and politics a bit more. Knee jerk reactions have massive implications.
When Bush (1st) withdrew funding for education in the Middle East that gap was taken up by Islamic extremists which resulted in the rise of terrorism. So the short term financial gains resulted in long term pain.