To think we cannot afford to support Ukraine anymore

I think the OP is using this report to highlight her belief that we can't afford to help Ukraine, just didn't articulate or she has had a change of heart.

The UK is involved in Ukraine because Putin is a greedy, power hungry bully whose regime will pose a clear threat to the UK
if his advances go unchecked. We went through this scenario in the 1930s, and dismissing it as ‘not our problem’ went very badly indeed. The only thing that would be more expensive than supporting Ukraine now would be fighting a full-scale war nearer to home in a few years’ time.

The article is citing those calling for more spending on defense in light of the Ukraine situation. It flies directly in the face of what you posited initially OP.

Oh, you're back.

Can you quote 'the ones'?

Also - did you actually read the article?

Soooo the government has made cuts to all services. If this is new to you I don’t think that people can put too much weight in your thoughts on foreign policy

@Cath2712

I think you are being a little bit 'wooshed' there.

I am taking the piss out of the endless supply of useful idiots who inhibit this and other forums that I frequent who perform all sorts of mental acrobats to justify or mitigate the actions of Russia in Ukraine with whataboutery, false equivalence and general catch all blaming of 'The West'.

@DanseAvecLesLoups "But the west" what??
What's happened in Ukraine since the ousting of Viktor Yanukovych is the natural development of whats happened in Europe since the fall of the Berlin wall. If not, why is Moscow so terrified that it is sacrificing hundreds of thousands of its young men in Ukraine? This is existential for the Russians too. They know that the Caucasus will go next and then the Central Asian states. I don't doubt that Armenia would join NATO in a heartbeat if it could, why else has Pashinyan been on a charm offensive in Paris?

If being part of Russia was so great - how come Eastern Europe fell like a pack of cards at the first chance? And Poland threatened to develop its own nuclear weapons arsenal if it wasn't allowed into NATO?

There is a lot of blood to be spilt yet - but doubtless the hawks in Washington and Brussels see this as an opportunity to break Russia once and for all and stop its pernicious influence in some of the most vulnerable parts of the world - Africa, Latin America.

Moscow or London? (... or New York/Oslo/ Berlin/ Rome/ LA/ Madrid?)
Where would you rather live?

But.....but.....The West

@Cath2712 I think the same as you. We must not be complacent.

I'm a TV journalist and since February I have sat at my desk every day and watched the agency feed pictures come in from Ukraine - and I mean the UNFILTERED, live, on-the-ground pictures of what is really happening every day in the country. On Christmas eve, I had to cut some footage from the Russian shelling of the central square in Kherson, where a woman had been decapitated while she was out shopping and a man was literally blown to pieces while driving along in his car.

I have this morning just seen some footage of a ten year old girl who has been pulled semi conscious and seriously injured from the remains of a market place in Kharkiv. Two other women were killed. If the NATO alliance wavers in Ukraine, even for a moment, these scenes could soon be taking place in Tallinn, Helsinki, or Chisinau. And then where next?

Russia has undoubtedly been planning this for years and has been waiting for (colluding with) a string of events that have led to this moment - the Trump Presidency, Brexit, the US pull-out from Afghanistan, the rise of the alt-right.

If Moscow advances on Europe, which it has every intention of doing, we will be dreaming of the days when all we had to worry about was gas bills, the price of shopping and how to get a doctors appointment.

This war has EVERYTHING to do with us - and its comments like the one that started this thread that have allowed Putin to advance as far as he has, and will allow him to continue if he can.

I would urge everyone to please educate yourself about whats happening in Ukraine - and what happened in Weimar Germany in the thirties - and don't for a moment underestimate the seriousness of the challenge we are facing

You’re right that this country is in an appalling mess, but at least we largely have democracy and freedom from tyranny. If we can’t defend those fundamental principles then we really are in trouble.

If you want to be more pragmatic/selfish, then allowing Putin to unilaterally annex a neighbouring democracy (deliberately murdering countless unarmed civilians in the process) gives a green light to greedy autocrats across the globe and within a generation we could be the prey

Dumb response 🙄

@Alexandra2001 I agree it's dire. In the end we will have to go with what we feel at the time is least harmful, but it's not the way to go into any election.

I look at the effects of RL tory policy on women now!

Over 50% of women needing a DV refuge place are turned away... this is criminal.
Rapes & the justice system
Childrens services.
Police and how they treat women
NHS and single sex medics and wards

Sorry its completely off topic but i wanted to answer your post.

If he can only get out of this twaw bullshit. What puts me off is that he is willing to pander to this lie and sod the effect on actual women!

And it's easy to forget what a huge internal job Starmer had to do to fix the Labour Party to make it a credible alternative to swinging/centrist voters.

I thought some of his framing was very welcome, it will be interesting to see how it goes down with an electorate that is used to a massively centralised system.

Agree and as we get closer to the GE, we'll see more policies coming forward.
No good coming out with them now.. Sunak would pinch the popular ones and quite frankly, its too far away.. we don't know how Ukraine will turn out next month... let alone in 2 years time.

I don't think anyone who voted could have predicted the whole BJ fiasco or the utter shit show that has been the Conservative Party since

Not being wise after the event but it was predicted, i predicted it on here many times as did many many other posters and commentators.... not because i'm some sort of Sear but because we knew what the Tory party was like (Cameron and the Bullingdon club, Windrush) we knew what Boris J was and is and we knew what people like Farage were like.

It was one reason i voted remain, leavers were putting their trust in leaders (from either main party) that have let them down time and time again.. only post EU, they would have zero controls over their behaviour.

Nothing that has happened since 2016 is surprising in the least..

Hindsight bias is our tendency to look back at an event that we could not predict at the time and think the outcome was easily predictable. It is also called the 'knew-it-all-along' effect

That is utter rubbish. Tory governments have a policy of not funding public services. It's their brand of politics. It always has been. Don't you bother to read the manifestos?

As for Brexit, leading economists warned everyone in no uncertain terms that Brexit would mean financial hardship for many in the Uk for at least 50 years. They warned that taxes would go up. Indeed, even leading Brexiteers admitted this as well.

I think the year ahead will be very interesting. Keir Starmer's speech this week felt properly reforming and the first time it felt like there was a distinct, credible and pretty interesting alternative.

I think polls reflect dissatisfaction with the current government, and an acceptance that with limited options available to us, in the form of an opposition, Labour will have to do!
I don't see massive enthusiasm for left wing parties on MN, not least due to their stance on gender issues.

The whole thing is rotten - as a GE approaches, we should feel faced with credible choices, instead of voting for the least worst thing as we perceive it at the time of voting!

Yup. If we want more money then sorting out a decent trade deal with the EU would be the way to go.
Not worrying about supporting Ukraine.

<Monty Python Voice> No one expects the Liz Truss premiership.

To be fair to the PP, a lot of people did predict this broad outcome (without the year of three prime ministers etc) before the fact. It was all dismissed as project fear.

I will admit that I didn't see the Liz Truss premiership coming...