To think we cannot afford to support Ukraine anymore

@JassyRadlett

The agreement, brokered by three EU diplomats, called for the creation of a national unity government, a presidential election by December 2014, and a return to an earlier Ukrainian constitution that would have curtailed Yanukovych’s powers.

The official said the United States worked with Yanukovych's government, Ukraine's opposition, and “other stakeholders to reach an agreement to put Ukraine back on track toward fulfilling the aspirations of the Ukrainian people for democracy, respect for human rights, European integration and long-term economic growth.”

With everything so elegantly brokered, not sure why the elected President had to flee. Just folks taking care of business I suppose.

As many others have said, it's a case of considering the fact that if Russia does invade Ukraine, will they stop there? Will they keep invading across Europe? How close to our country do we want them to invade to until we get involved? How many other countries will we stand by and watch Russia invade before we decide it's time to act?

You are correct OP that it is very, very expensive to assist in this way but it's been highly theorised that Russia is testing the water to see what they can get away with. Putin is an unpredictable force and he may not stop at Ukraine. Even if Putin does eventually manage to invade Ukraine but decides to stop there - will his eventual successor? Or will it be seen that Europe did so little that there would be the opportunity to invade other surrounding countries to increase Russia's grip.

However, I do also think that if other countries in Europe contributed more towards the Ukrainian efforts, we would then be in the position where we in the UK might not have to spend quite as much money on the support effort.

According to Algazeera's statistics (provided in December 2022), other than the USA and "EU Institutions", the UK is the highest provider of assistance, followed closely by Germany. Countries such as Poland, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland, Estonia etc are contributing very little independently in the way of assistance, whether it be by financial, humanitarian or military means. Although almost every country is in a financial crisis of some kind or another currently, the UK is included in this and yet we are donating large amounts where other countries don't appear to be. Other countries need to step up to prevent Putin invading Ukraine and potentially moving further into Europe. I don't think we should withdraw support, but if other countries increased their levels of support it may be less necessary for us to spend as much - if we spent less but other countries gave similar amounts of assistance, Ukraine would have much more aid but the UK would be in a better financial position.

I do have a friend who is Ukrainian though so I may be biased in my absolute belief that we should contribute towards the Ukrainian defense effort. He is the same age as me (early 20s) and used to have a hobby doing WW1 and WW2 war reenactments as part of a group, taking photos and hosting displays for the public. It's gut wrenching to now see photos of him in full, modern military gear, carrying real, working weapons, forced to fight in a situation he never wanted to be part of. He is fighting to keep his home, his family, his sisters and his country safe.

What form exactly would this "negotiated settlement" take?

I think they get the checklist

Even more Russian jews have fled to Israel since the war began. What are they feeling from?

Fish in a fucking barrel, this thread.

It does prove a PP's point about how poor, unsophisticated and easily disprovable Russian propaganda is, though.

If this is meant to be a gotcha, then it's fallen short of the mark

I suppose it must be much harder to get the staff in Russia now, what with so many of them having been fed into Putin's meat grinder.

Contemporary sources are your friend here in understanding exactly what deal Obama was talking about and who was party to it. Rather than relying on Mr Lavrov's reinterpretations of history.

Politico link

So, do you believe Vladimir Lukin was an Obama puppet at the time?

Can't aruge with bot logic.

Yes, and I've shared his administration's statement about that interview including who 'we' referred to.

It's no kind of smoking gun that Euromaidan was orchestrated by the US.

I think you're missing the point a bit. It's not precisely that there is a war between Ukraine and Russua only. That's just the diplomatic version to hold a full scale nuclear war off. Actually there is a war/power struggle between Europe (including the UK) and Russia and the battle field is Ukraine. If Europe loses then Russia will invade every European country one by one.

Now you know that, do you understand why we need to send all we've got to Ukraine?

Are you quite sure that people fleeing the invading Russian forces is a point in your favour here?

Even many Ukrainians don’t see the point of standing and fighting and have chosen the option to flee: www.thejc.com/news/news/an-exodus-for-our-times-the-jews-fleeing-ukraine-for-israel-2wiBIo0R1yvriVQHtXJqZe?reloadTime=1672531200010

"Mr Putin made this decision around Crimea and Ukraine, not because of some grand strategy but essentially because he was caught off-balance by the protests in the Maidan and Yanukovich then fleeing after we had brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine"

You can watch it here:

I wonder if the op originated in Russia

I agree we can't afford it anymore, but we also can't afford letting Russia win. It's cruel country. Did enough damage through the years.

The attitude to dismiss 30% of the voters who disagree with you as bots/directed by foreigners/idiots is a repeat pattern. this is EXACTLY what has happened to the 52% who voted for brexit

This is not the great argument for listening to cranks that you think it is.

Quite. Unfortunately for Russia apologists, the exiled former Chief Rabbi of Moscow has some inconvenient observations to share on neo Nazism and the relative positions of Jewish people in Ukraine and Russia.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/30/exiled-chief-rabbi-jews-should-leave-russia-while-they-can-pinchas-goldschmidt-war-ukraine

The bots know best, though.

I mean bless the RPI, they waited a full day before regurgitating Lavrov's talking points.

Obama administration response to Lavrov's claims (via RFE):

In Washington, the Obama administration reacted to Lavrov's statement on February 2 by saying that Russia is pushing a “revisionist narrative of the crisis in Ukraine” that is “deeply troubling, but utterly unconvincing.”

A senior administration official told RFE/RL that Obama’s remarks referred to U.S. efforts to help resolve the crisis in the run-up to a February 21, 2014 deal signed by Yanukovych and what was then Ukraine's opposition.

The agreement, brokered by three EU diplomats, called for the creation of a national unity government, a presidential election by December 2014, and a return to an earlier Ukrainian constitution that would have curtailed Yanukovych’s powers.

The official said the United States worked with Yanukovych's government, Ukraine's opposition, and “other stakeholders to reach an agreement to put Ukraine back on track toward fulfilling the aspirations of the Ukrainian people for democracy, respect for human rights, European integration and long-term economic growth.”

The official said: “This effort included not just the United States but Russian and European government representatives as well."

Do you really think that the killing would stop if Ukrainians weren't armed? Did you see what those Russian butchers did to unarmed civilians in Bucha?

Could we have nonpartisan sources please? Do you have the full text of what Obama actually said?

Well folks, we know one poster we can safely just ignore because they went that one step too far with the 'Ukraine didn't even exist...' trope. With that as the starting point, no reason to think that anything else won't also be lies - not even worth engaging as we'll just get more and more fiction in an attempt to obfuscate and confuse.

Russia is such a saviour.
Ukraine from nazis. Czechoslovakia from western liberals...