Debate over children in public places

I'm finding the school holiday that are on at the moment really challenging because of children's behaviour in public places.
I'm talking about both when they are by themselves in groups or with adults in presumably family groups.

I actually don't feel physically safe because of the way the children don't give way an inch when they walk towards you and they bump into you, when they stand at bus stops they are messing about and stand on your feet and jostle you, they run around supermarkets and right into your path etc. It's as though a lot of children aren't able to process the fact that other people have a right to personal space. They are totally oblivious to adults.

I really don't understand how we have got to the stage where children don't seem to have been taught anything about how to behave in public places.

Both

I've little objection to stuff spreading across the table. It's when detritus starts engulfing the floor...

To learn you must make mistakes. Therefore if you interact with little humans who are learning you will see some mistakes.
Perhaps you are currently learning tolerance.

This.

Parents should at least make an effort to try to control their children, rather than abandoning all responsibility and letting them off-leash.

There is a middle ground here. Yes we need to teach our children to behave appropriately but realistically you have to expect some noise while children are at the stage of learning and also those with additional needs

Children get used to being neglected and forced to sit or else be severely punished. But children can’t just get used to behaving in a particular setting when they’re tiny. The game of let’s see how quiet and still we can be doesn’t last long for 2 year olds. And yes, my friend and I used to play that game. I couldn’t take dd certain places. The cinema at 2.5 she just ran up and down the stairs and wouldn’t sit down. She still has far more energy than any of her friends at 14.

I had a DC who never ever tantrummed, never demanded anything, never played up or misbehaved, and was basically a dream toddler. Confident in my obviously superior parenting skills I had another DC.

<hollow laugh>

Next DC was fucking karma personified. Temper like Gordon Ramsey on a bad day, calling them 'stubborn' is a vast oversimplification of how stubborn they were, they were a bolter, a master of turning their bones to jelly and suddenly weighing 500lbs at the first hint of being removed from a situation, didn't sleep, didn't eat, and was generally hard work.

It took a lot of time and energy to turn it around, including time for them to develop and gain the emotional control that comes with age. During that time you can vet we still continued to go to public places, still modelled how to behave in those places, and still gave them opportunities to make those sort of behavioural choices and practice what social skills they had.

It's about tolerable limits. Everyone on public transport should make an effort to be considerate to other people, but that's easier for some than others. Some parents should have better discipline, some people should stop playing music, large groups of football fans should stop the druken singing and swearing.... and so it goes on.

But its also fairly obvious when parents abdicate all responsibility, either because they can't be bothered, have given up, or think their child's right to be a nuisance over rides the rights of other adults not to endure it. That is anti social.

Sometimes. But a lovely friend of mine once said that sometimes she used to go to the supermarket or shopping centre with her two because she wouldn't murder them in public and the day she was having was so dreadful, she might at home. Operating on two hours sleep, days of the same parenting struggles, no support, PND, child with a lot of needs, shitty relationship... sometimes people just don't have it in them.

I err on kind not judgement if possible.

IKR? I'll never forget one comment on one of the interminable reins threads. One poster said, "all your child wants to do is hold your hand and look at a flower with you, you wouldn't need reins of you did that". No, that's your child. All my child wants to do is run around screaming at the top of her lungs, into traffic, while beating her chest like an angry gorilla. Reins please.

My child is the least fussy eater in the world. I don't kid myself that's because I'm soooooo amazing at feeding her. No, she was born not fussy and I didn't ruin her. 90% luck, 10% judgement.

Its fairly obvious when a parent is doing all they can to manage their child's behaviour. They are engaged with the child, make an effort to head off or de-escalate poor behaviour and are obviously trying to minimise disruption to other people. Sometimes these things don't work and we should all have some tolerance for that.
But its also fairly obvious when parents abdicate all responsibility, either because they can't be bothered, have given up, or think their child's right to be a nuisance over rides the rights of other adults not to endure it. That is anti social.

"I ask her not to....." 🤣.
You have no idea how easy your child is.

You know OP I think both statements are true because of course it is a parent's job to teach a kid how to behave in society and also kids are human beings and will misbehave and are, actually, allowed to exist. But there are a number of things that you are being slightly complacent about.

1. As the parent of a 6 year old you have not been through every stage of childhood with your daughter yet. If you don't want your friend to turn round and laugh in your face when your daughter does something you don't like I would reign in the smugness a bit. Nothing to do with chavvyness.
2. Teaching girls to stay quiet and shut up on public transport is all very well, but girls should be taught to voice their discomfort as well. I'm sure many, many of us as women have been subject to some kind of sexual harassment on public transport and were unable to shout out because of this early training about being considerate to other people
3. your questions about NT/ND people are frankly insulting.You do the work on that one. Don't make people who are struggling to help their kid manage the expectations of daily life do it for you. There are plenty of reasons some kids find it more difficult to 'behave' than others.

Yes, it's temperament.

DD was like a ball of energy all the time. We used to go to the beach to run her like a dog every day, including December. Hours and hours of running, climbing, swimming, digging. She never stopped, never looked back, no fear, no off switch.

It's not that I don't think sitting nicely is important, it was just impossible. My favourite restaurant, I think we eventually took her when she was about 5. The very proper French maitre-d' knew us and I said, "just make the throat cutting motion when we aren't OK and we will leave immediately". That's how much we managed our shit in public.

You aren't a better parent, you just got an easier child. Please look kindly at the less lucky parents. A lot of them are trying but can't fight every single battle or all their child hears is "no". ALL THE TIME.

It does sound like op’s dd is biddable. I was friendly with a woman, who had a ds, who could sit at a restaurant table for a couple of hours playing with his toys age 3. My dd was a demon, more like the energetic needs of a typical boy than girl.

I used to get annoyed at the nanny state type propaganda aimed at parents for things I thought were extremely obvious, but I think I forgot that the majority of adults are just pretty thick (at best) and shit parents at worst. This week I have seen:

Toddler drinking full fat coke in his pram on the bus
Parent leaving the baby and the buggy unattended while she sat up the back scrolling her phone
Numerous parents running across the traffic with their small children being dragged behind
Unattended children at softplay jumping on babies in the under 3 area (common occurrence, i always step in and tell them to get out)

Its only Tuesday!

One, age 6. Never had a meltdown but has been loud in public, I just ask her not to and make sure she knows why.

You have one of these. Biddable children. I had a friend with one and she was utterly lovely to me and my not-biddable child. Her DH used to try to give me helpful hints on parenting because they knew it all with their well-behaved child. My friend used to say, "you do twice the parenting I do for half the result". Sympathetically! Then they had their third. She screamed from the second she was born until she was about 3. He then admitted he had no skills at all.

You think you are a better parent. You may just be a lucky one.

You are both right. Parents should be teaching their children manners, how to behave but as they are children sometimes they will forget and misbehave. Toddlers really don't know how to behave whereas sen aside, school age kids shouldn't be shouting and screaming

I have made a naughty, noisy child get off the bus, and wait until he could be quiet and well behaved before getting back on (2 buses later). He NEVER did it again.

Flawed thread. The two options aren't mutually exclusive.

It comes down to basic consideration and common sense, which sadly the majority of the general public lack which is why public transport can be so utterly grim.

I have a toddler. Sometimes she has a total meltdown, and I hug and comfort her but I long ago stopped feeling embarrassed because I am doing the best I can, and I still need to get home. She cant help it.
Sometimes she likes to shriek like a dolphin, and that is when I step in and distract her to use a quieter voice.

Both adults and children can behave atrociously (although the latter should still fall on the adult to manage.)

Dont eat smelly food. Dont have loud phone conversations. Use headphones. Dont put your bag on a seat. Get up and move when people who need the seat get on.

And christ, I cant believe I have to type this - do not clip your nails.

People would do well to remember public transport is public. Children exist and with that comes certain noises and probably more mess.

Parents should make an effort to parent their child and teach them how to behave in public, but this doesn't always result in the child behaving perfectly in all situations.

If a child makes a mess I would expect the parent to clean it up. But some mess and noise is to be expected on public transport

Grown men manspreading, or throwing their rubbish everywhere. Or grown adults being so drunk they vomit is another story.