To think that having to have a DBS check to home educate is unfair.

When officials demand entry into your home, gathering extra information on you and monitoring your parenting simply because you choose the perfectly legal option of home education; with the stated aim of trying to get your children into school it is harassment disguised as safeguarding.

There is an example from the LGA where the LA took formal action to force a child to attend school because they messaged one of their school friends on social media ‘during school hours’.

So why don’t we do this for crimes then? Why don’t we all have to submit to an investigation to see if there’s any evidence of wrongdoing?

I don’t have any issue with homeschooling and don’t think it’s inherently damaging and I know it can be done very well. I agree that lockdown was not homeschooling.

My point was really that not all children live in happy, supportive, non-abusive homes and not all of them will experience school as authoritarian places where negative things happen. We can’t just assume that homeschooled children are all happy and ok so long as they haven’t presented with injuries at A&E. Some form of checking needs to happen. If some adults find that intrusive then they find it intrusive. It isn’t about them. The balance of risks makes it necessary.

Don’t confuse lockdown “homeschooling” with home education. That has really skewed the public perception of what home educating is. I think what disturbed peoples mental health was being literally trapped in their homes with nowhere to go, while a pandemic raged - not the fact they weren’t at school. I found lockdown hard, because we couldn’t go to anywhere we usually go to. Nothing to do with not being at school.

It’s odd to me that people have a positive view of schools. They’re authoritarian institutions designed to make workers for factories (look at when the current schooling system was invented - we still use those principles).

@Minky3 It is incredibly disturbing to see someone dismissing safeguarding children as harassment. It discredits everything else that you have to say. Child safeguarding is not harassment, early help support is not harassment.
Your depiction of schools is also absurd. The fact is that we are still very much dealing with the MH effects now of young people who are deeply traumatised by months of lockdown confined to the house with their families. The fact is that for a significant minority of kids school is a school a refuge and home is not a happy, safe place.

So you think it’s acceptable for HVs to come into someone’s home, when there’s no evidence of any issues, just because they’ve had a baby? Or are you saying people should have to take their children to clinics to get weighed?

I did neither - do you think that makes me “suspicious”? Plenty of people do not need HVs. I know how to weigh a baby. I know how to look after a baby. If I have concerns, I’ll raise them myself.

GCSEs are optional and can be done at any age - some children cannot cope with exams, especially in the case of SEN (which is often undiagnosed). Does it matter if someone doesn’t take GCSEs at 15/16? I don’t think so. There’s no age limit.

The issue I have is the assumption - by that logic, every citizen should all have a yearly police inspection to check we aren’t committing any crimes. Unless there’s evidence, it’s wrong to force “checks” on people. You could say how would you get the evidence without checks, well that goes for crime as well - yet we accept that we aren’t just going to investigate random people on the off chance crimes are being concealed. There comes a point where we as a society have to trust people to a degree.

I don't think it should be legal to opt out of HV appointments

I am also more than content for home education to remain legal, as I have no problem with people who do it well.

What I do have a problem with is people who use it as a cover for providing no education whatsoever, providing only a religious education, or providing them with an education which leaves them unable to achieve their ambitions (entering them for 5 GCSEs including English and maths really is a bare minimum here).

Naturally I also have a problem with those who use it as a means to isolate their child, abuse them, and prevent anyone else from noticing.

Unfortunately the only way to tell the difference between people who are doing home ed well and those who are claiming their child is home educated is to check on them in person, for both education and safeguarding reasons.

If I home educated then I wouldn't want people dragging the name of home education through the mud.

I think a register will make home educated unhappier and stop them accessing help they otherwise could do.

If LA’s are going to use the register to triage which families they are going to prioritise for ‘safeguarding’ (harassment) and refusal to share or falsifying information on that register becomes a criminal offence then parents may well choose options that protect their children more but at a cost.

For example of you have to tell the LA if your children have any SEN so they can prioritise you for ‘support’ (another coded word for harassment), then you can either choose to get your child investigated and diagnosed but risk them being forced into school so they can experience the abuse and misery society feels they are due or they can continue their home education with lower risk of officialdom ‘support’ but at the cost of a childhood diagnosis.

Likewise if you are home educators who are religious you may choose to not inform the LA to avoid being targeted perhaps then you feel the need to hide your religious observances in case someone informs the LA or they find out by other means.

Im sure this applies to various other bits of data the LA will want to harvest and sell off.

It wiuld be a fun conversation with your kids if the LA gain the power to enter your home to do ‘safeguarding’ (harassment) checks just because you home educate.

’Mum why do these people show up out of nowhere, stop what we were doing then take me away to ask me a lot of questions about what we do?’

’Its simple little one, the general public and the government don’t like families like ours and think we are untrustworthy. They are looking for any reason they can to force you to go to school. If we don’t let them do this they will send me to prison’

Its either that or lie to them.

How are you going to tell if someone is ok due to being on a list?

the SEND support issue - that assumes that a) the ideal situation for SEND children is in school and b) only works if the need or condition is diagnosed. Many kids are undiagnosed until later on, some even until adulthood.

the point about measuring outcomes - again, that makes the assumption that a) exam results or certain careers are the goal and b) that all children start with the same ability. For example, if a higher percentage of children with learning disabilities are EHE due to schools not being a good fit, then EHE children will statistically likely achieve lower grades. That wouldn’t mean that was caused by the EHE though.

Given many people maliciously report home educating families, I’m not sure what the value is of that one either.

The only possible one I can see is teenage girls and pregnancy, but even so, what would you do? Ban de registration between certain ages for girls if the figures showed many were becoming teenage mothers?

Actually being able to bring up a list and check if a child is on it.

Being able to bring up a list and check if the children who are on the list are OK. Like during covid, which is how this came up in the first place - not knowing where tens of thousands of children were and if they were OK.

Being able to bring up a list and see that x% are on it due to failures in SEND provision and use it to campaign for different/better/higher funded provision for children with SEND.

Being able to see particular councils are so bad at providing support for SEND, there is a huge disparity in the numbers EHE compared to an area that has better provision.

Being able to track over longer timescales and demonstrate that EHE children go on to higher education/different keystages, suggesting that there are particular failings in the national curriculum at a certain point. Or that a particular academy chain has a disproportionate number of parents EHE just before exams covers up offrolling and illegal exclusions

Being able to demonstrate that EHE is beneficial for those who do it and it doesn't harm their adult prospects.

Being able to show that there isn't a problem with EHE being used to deflect attention away from abuse.

Being able to show that EHE teenage girls that are deregistered do or don't tend to become parents themselves within 18 months.

Being able to show that the vast majority of EHE families don't have criminal records for violent or sexual offences or concerns reported by schools/doctors/neighbours/grandparents and it's therefore not necessary to flag it up as a potential issue....

There is so much in data that can be done to improve things for children, both current and future, if they have accurate details in one accessible secure record.

Someone earlier on this thread said it should be illegal to opt out of HV appointments - not sure why it’s such a jump to believe some people want to make Home Ed illegal. Several countries have already done so (Germany, France)

Ah so it seems that you do think going to school keeps children safer than being home educated.

That is my personal lived experience. Who are you to deny and invalidate my lived experience as someone abused via HE? It's simply a fact that a lot of abuse and other safeguarding concerns only get noticed due to being in school.

I want people to stop getting safeguarding and education mixed up.

Me too. I've not once mentioned education, my sole concern is preventing child abuse, yet whenever I mention child abuse people insist on dragging it back to education which is completely different from safeguarding against abuse.

I want them to stop saying that lots of people take their children out of school to abuse them.

Please point to where anyone has said that "lots of people" do this.

But I personally don't have the perfect answer to the question "how do we make sure no child is ever abused?". Do you?

No but it sure as hell isn't "parents should have complete ownership over their children and should have total freedom to deregister them from school and vanish, reject any monitoring or safeguarding, and anyone who thinks safeguarding is important wants kids to be microchipped at birth and raised in prisons so they can be turned into government robo-slaves."

JemimaPuddlegoose · Today 23:13

Yes they are. Plenty of people think home education should be banned
Do they? Weird that none of them ever post here
Why is that weird Jemima? There have been posts on Mumsnet from people wanting to make home education illegal But regardless, not everyone is on Mumsnet.

I’ve seen it discussed on home ed boards a few times, and it’s something I may discuss with other HEers myself.

Both myself and my DH are DBS checked (well mines probably expired, as I haven’t worked since my 2nd child was born) by the way, so it’s not the check specifically I have an issue with, more the assertion that I am somehow a threat to my own children - but only specifically during school hours, Monday to Friday.

Where’s the smoking gun of this happening en masse to home educated children? Because I can find an article every week about a child who’s committed suicide due to bullying or school related abuse.

I’m not saying it never happens but statistically there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that this is a huge, hidden problem within the HE community. There is however, absolutely masses of evidence that schools are destroying the mental health of young people

for a start, I’d like to see Home Educators, or ex Home Ecucators, in positions as EHE LA bods rather than ex teachers.

Cool, I'd be happy to support such a campaign. Why not start one?

Hell, I'd be first in line to volunteer, as someone who both supports home education and has worked as an HE tutor, and has a background in safeguarding.

Ah so it seems that you do think going to school keeps children safer than being home educated.

What exactly is it that you want? I asked you earlier and you only repeated the question back to me and said "you're the expert".

I want people to stop getting safeguarding and education mixed up. I want them to stop saying that lots of people take their children out of school to abuse them. I want people to stop making assumptions about me based on the fact that I home educate. I also don't want to be accused of not having empathy. But I personally don't have the perfect answer to the question "how do we make sure no child is ever abused?". Do you?

Does that terrify me? Absolutely it does.

Literally every single thing you've said, equally applies to my own situation of being abused due to HE.

The fact that children can simply be de-registered from school and vanish entirely, the knowledge that children experience any amount of abuse without anyone seeming to give a shit (because they're alright Jack) absolutely terrifies me. It should absolutely terrifying anyone who gives a shit about the well-being of children not their own.

@JemimaPuddlegoose for a start, I’d like to see Home Educators, or ex Home Ecucators, in positions as EHE LA bods rather than ex teachers. If the LAs genuinely want to work with our community and build bridges, that’s how it needs to start. There’s no hope of understanding us if they only employ people who have experienced one narrow part of the educational spectrum.

Yes they are. Plenty of people think home education should be banned
Do they? Weird that none of them ever post here.

Because people who carry out these “checks” - LA bods - often have no experience with HE
I've mentioned this several times, as a reason why many HEers have valid concerns over LEAs, and have several times noted how problematic it is that different LEAs vary so much.

That's an issue that needs to be changed. That's what people need to fight for, and come up with alternatives too. Yet whenever I raised the question "how to change the system to better support HEers" the only response from the HE posters is "well my kids are fine so that's not my problem."

possibly triggering content below:

Also to add - my experience in school traumatised me. At one point, I attempted suicide because of it. The fact that an “official” who doesn’t know my children, me, or our lives could force me by law to send my children into what is a bear pit of underfunding, vicious bullies and abusive authoritarians leaves me cold. I would have no power to protect them from the horrors I was subject to. Someone can decide that, because they decide I don’t fit their box. They can, with an odd the cuff decision, radically alter the course of my children’s lives and ensure they’re subjected to endless trauma. Does that terrify me? Absolutely it does.

It’s ridiculous and makes absolutely no sense!

Because people who carry out these “checks” - LA bods - often have no experience with HE, believe that school at home is the only type of valid HE, and have personal prejudices against people who live alternative lifestyles. Many are ex teachers. There’s not some sort of panel or anything, it’s just one EHE officer - they could be racist, sexist, dislike tattooed parents, dislike someone’s area or home - I’ve heard of a case where the EHE official referred a mother to social services because she breastfed her infant in front of her older child and the EHE person found it inappropriate. Basically, it’s one persons very subjective opinion that holds disproportionate power over us. The HE community is a very tiny one. We already take on the costs of home educating our children, happily and gladly, but the prejudices against us mean that these checks that are carried out are often biased against us from the get go.

I also ideologically really really dislike the stance that I have to prove myself capable, rather than we all be assumed capable until evidence shows we are not.

Yes they are. Plenty of people think home education should be banned

But why do you perceive wanting to protect children from abuse - when clearly HE is used as a cover for abuse, and a ton of abuse is only noticed due to being in school - as being against you personally?