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Informed Consent

36 replies

SucculentChalice · 11/04/2022 13:59

Thoughts on this as its becoming a bit of a debated topic elsewhere. Just wanting to start a discussion, not a bun fight!

The idea is that with regards to consent for sex, if you are lied to and would not have otherwise have had sex had you known the truth (e.g. someone told you they were single when they were married or your boyfriend/girlfriend told you they were exclusive when they were regularly cheating on you, etc), you did not give full consent and therefore its a form of sexual assault. Not a criminalised form of sexual assault but sa of some kind all the same. Due to the lack of informed consent.

There are actually a very few court cases on this but one that sticks in my memory is how a woman faked being male and blindfolded her willing partner to keep up with the pretence. She was jailed for 6 years I think for sexual assault, but there are plenty of other examples where people lie and deceive to get sex and its not criminalised.

I just wonder if in the future it is something we will discuss more with regards to consent.

YABU if you think uninformed consent is ok.
YANBU if you think uninformed consent is not proper consent.

OP posts:
AmyDudley · 11/04/2022 15:05

I can only speak from experience. My (now ex) husband had an affair, I did not know about it, he continued to have sex with me whilst he was having the affair. When I found out about the affair (he left me for the other woman which is when I found out) I felt extremely violated. I certainly would not have consented to having sex with him had I known he was cheating on me, in fact he made it clear that he had ceased feeling any affection for me months before he actually left and when I asked why he continued to have sex with me, his reply was 'because I was horny and you were there'. It made me feel disgusting, truly horrible.

Should it be criminal - I don't know, I imagine it would be hard to prove a case. But I was sexually assaulted in my youth and him having sex with me as if I were an object, made me feel worse than that did, (although obviously the SA was horrible too) damaged me more I would say, and the sexual assault was a criminal offence. But as I say I can only speak for myself and I understand others may view things differently. To me what he did was absolutely non consensual.

waterboats · 11/04/2022 14:57

I think that you are correct in thinking that in time, laws might change to catch up with certain behaviours that we as a society to not agree with. However, I wouldn't know what changes will be made. Personally I wouldn't class claiming to be single when in reality not, as the same category of not being able to give consent as say someone who had too much alcohol is unable to give consent, however I agree with you that they are both wrong and both victims would feel hurt, if possibly in a different way.
I feel the difficulty lies in how far it can be taken. What about if someone "pretended" to have a different job, for instance, or have different hobbies. Would we then be able to say, I only went to bed with him/ her because I believed they were a dentist who enjoyed classical music? As others have said the cut off has to be somewhere, but where. Cheating can have physical consequences to the other party in the form of being at risk to stds, not being a dentist wouldn't.

SucculentChalice · 11/04/2022 14:45

@RealBecca

For me the question is "is the sex physically damaging or challenging to ones sexual identity"

STDs and aids- physically damaged health.
Using a sex toy without consent is physically damaging.
presenting as a different sex - people have a right to a sexual preference so presenting differently is damaging to ones sense of identity.

Cheating - no, but I think there should be a law around being deceitful when it results in the potential to cause a physical result the person wouldn't have consented to. Like saying you're single, have been checked for STDs or has fertility issues which leads to a decision not using contraception as this could lead to STDs, aids or pregnancy.

Interesting.

So lets say if a married man pretended he was single and entered into a reasonably long relationship with a woman who believed was his girlfriend, in an exclusive relationship. Thats obtaining consent by deceit but its tolerated by society. Presumably because its so common.

Perhaps one day we will think thats not really an acceptable level of consent. I don't think we are there at all as a society by any means, obvs!

OP posts:
SucculentChalice · 11/04/2022 14:43

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

I think its whether the lie changes the nature of the sex makes the difference

So lying about contraception use (deliberately, not genuine errors), male vs female, age to a certain extent, known STIs...

I read the link provided by Obelisk which was interesting. But certainly in cases of rape we have very poor rates of conviction and the offence is dealt with badly in general with regards to cross examination of victims in court and their previous sexual history and so on. Perhaps we need to have a think about modernising the legal definitions as well.

It seems rather a grey area in this country whether lying about contraception is an offence or not. It is in Sweden, which is why Julian Assanges was charged. But its hardly ever prosecuted here. The line at which the lie changes the nature of the offence appears to be very poorly defined and subject to change, and not well understood by most people.

OP posts:
RealBecca · 11/04/2022 14:41

For me the question is "is the sex physically damaging or challenging to ones sexual identity"

STDs and aids- physically damaged health.
Using a sex toy without consent is physically damaging.
presenting as a different sex - people have a right to a sexual preference so presenting differently is damaging to ones sense of identity.

Cheating - no, but I think there should be a law around being deceitful when it results in the potential to cause a physical result the person wouldn't have consented to. Like saying you're single, have been checked for STDs or has fertility issues which leads to a decision not using contraception as this could lead to STDs, aids or pregnancy.

Aroundtheworldin80moves · 11/04/2022 14:32

I think its whether the lie changes the nature of the sex makes the difference

So lying about contraception use (deliberately, not genuine errors), male vs female, age to a certain extent, known STIs...

SucculentChalice · 11/04/2022 14:16

@Obelisk

Didn't you post almost this exact thing the other day?

There's some case law on it if you want to see what the courts have made of it
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception#United_Kingdom

Personally lying about having a girlfriend etc comes under "shitty immoral behaviour" for me, rather than something properly considered a crime.

No, I didn't. I might have posted something vaguely about it on another post somewhere, but I don't think so?

I believe that in some Indian states, deceiving someone into pre-marital sex by saying you will get married to them is a crime, but thats also for cultural reasons and probably not heavily enforced.

OP posts:
SucculentChalice · 11/04/2022 14:14

Maybe the example of the woman who pretended to be a man to get sex isn't the best as its derailing this slightly.

The issue is more of whether deceit negates consent and whether in future, the law might catch up. Times have already changed in many ways after all.

People can also be prosecuted for knowingly infecting others with AIDS but for other STDs? I don't think so.

OP posts:
Obelisk · 11/04/2022 14:12

Didn't you post almost this exact thing the other day?

There's some case law on it if you want to see what the courts have made of it
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception#United_Kingdom

Personally lying about having a girlfriend etc comes under "shitty immoral behaviour" for me, rather than something properly considered a crime.

ImAvingOops · 11/04/2022 14:11

Seen and been on a few threads about this recently. For me, lying about who you are on a fundamental level is where there is a real problem. So lying about your identity, sexuality.
Also if you are lying about behaviour that puts your sexual partner at risk - so cheating but still having unprotected sex with a partner who believes they are in a monogamous relationship.
These things are serious lies which affect informed consent

Mymindisnotmyown · 11/04/2022 14:05

Hmmm I think there’s a world of difference between someone lying about whether they are male or female or whether they have a girlfriend or not.

It’s really shitty behaviour either way. But sometimes some shitty behaviour isn’t necessarily criminal I’m afraid. Otherwise where would it stop?

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