Page 2 | To send my eldest to grammar school knowing it’ll be a squeeze?

Troisfoisfilles · 2022-03-03T22:37:12+00:00

So my eldest just won a place at a really good grammar school in our area to start year 7 in September which is great. She did so well in the entrance exam and interview that she was offered a scholarship and we have been awarded a brilliant bursary. Only trouble is, the bursary doesn’t cover everything and even the transport and uniform are a huge expense! It’s going to be a massive squeeze on finances. I also have two younger children who will no doubt miss out on little treats and things that I won’t be able to afford any longer 😞. She is very intelligent and would do well at any school but I know for a fact that she won’t achieve full potential at a state school. I originally applied for a place for her at the school I teach at. It’s a great school and she would do ok there but I don’t want just ok for her. For a start, she’s really quite eccentric and mature for her age. Kids similar to this at my school don’t really go down that well and are singled out by the others - kids are horrid! I really believe she needs the small classes, discipline and pushiness she’d get at a grammar. So am I being unreasonable in sending her?

Blogblogblogblog · 11/07/2023 10:59

…another big reason for the love of the old comprehensives was being a staff member, I could phone up the local education authority and get some advice or signposting to stuff. Now everything has become academised you have a lot more inefficiency as schools run themselves more and there’s more layers of management in each school. Obviously you have to have good local authority people but I was in good terms with them.

CecilyP · 10/07/2023 23:50

Chimchiminie · 10/07/2023 20:07

Well yeah and have chosen not to change it despite them no longer being a grammar.

The grammar bit is an attractive bit of branding in all sorts of ways.

By contrast, if a comprehensive changed to a grammar school, very doubt they would retain the ‘comprehensive’ as a nod to its heritage.

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Some would say they were grammars before state grammars existed and they remain grammars when few state grammars exists. Not all state grammars schools have grammar in the school name; don’t think the state Tiffin Schools in Kingston do whereas private Kingston Grammar School does. By contrast very few comprehensive schools have ‘comprehensive’ in their actual schools name.

Blogblogblogblog · 10/07/2023 22:58

Chimchiminie · 10/07/2023 22:26

‘something quite lovely’? 😁

Did you go to one? 😄

(Not saying comprehensives are bad – some are, some aren’t – just struck me as a funny thing to say if you actually went to one…!)

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No I went private then ‘public’. I always fancied going to the local comp. They were much cooler. The grammar (the rival fee paying) had even naffer uniform than us though.

When I did my teacher training I taught at the most amazing comp up North. Absolutely outstanding example of what a school should be and I thought a lot about how bad the private school teaching had been. I taught in various comps of varying standard.

My DC went to the local comp. They are really bright and would have done well practically anywhere. 5A* and an A between them at A Level (proper exam years). And the local comp gave them a very short day so they could do activities out of school (one will be going into the industry of the back of this) and now each have a chunky house deposit each with the money we wouldn’t have saved if we had had to go private. Their school wasn’t perfect, like my first teacher training one, but they have a much more rounded educational experience than I had. It’s the ideal really isn’t it - everyone of all backgrounds learning together, being a community as you all live in the same area and walking to school. You can just pop to your mates round the corner. And the chance to do well from any background - not relying on tutors for an 11+. It just like private ones though - you can get some awful comps (or Academies).

At my public school, many parents lived miles away and on more than one occasion forgot to pick their children up on exeat weekends. We had school on 6 days until 6pm. Then ridiculously long holidays alone as no one was from where you lived. Ex-army teachers who were up to no good with the sixth formers were off loaded to another school to go quietly. One had such a temper they let him go before he killed someone (he was massive and used to throw things at us if we got an answer wrong). Oxbridge graduate teachers who knew their subject but had no idea how to teach - one went bright red around girls so we gave up putting our hands up.

So yes, I have a soft spot for the ideal of comps.

Chimchiminie · 10/07/2023 22:26

Blogblogblogblog · 10/07/2023 22:21

I think there’s something quite lovely about going to the ‘local comp’ but they’re all changing names to Academies now.

‘something quite lovely’? 😁

Did you go to one? 😄

(Not saying comprehensives are bad – some are, some aren’t – just struck me as a funny thing to say if you actually went to one…!)

Blogblogblogblog · 10/07/2023 22:21

I think there’s something quite lovely about going to the ‘local comp’ but they’re all changing names to Academies now.

Chimchiminie · 10/07/2023 20:07

CecilyP · 10/07/2023 17:25

Surely they include grammar in their name because that was their name long before state education even existed,

Well yeah and have chosen not to change it despite them no longer being a grammar.

The grammar bit is an attractive bit of branding in all sorts of ways.

By contrast, if a comprehensive changed to a grammar school, very doubt they would retain the ‘comprehensive’ as a nod to its heritage.

CecilyP · 10/07/2023 17:25

Surely they include grammar in their name because that was their name long before state education even existed,

Chimchiminie · 10/07/2023 13:11

mocktail · 09/07/2023 12:19

I guess it's more accurate to say they've kept "grammar" in their name for historical reasons. Either way, they're not grammar schools any more.

Well exactly. They might be 100% selective but if they’re fee-paying, it’s really nothing to do with what the grammar school concept is about.

They’re selective private schools who’ve chosen to include ‘grammar’ in the name because it communicates academic excellence and selectivity in a way that the term ‘private (slash public) school’ does not.

Blogblogblogblog · 10/07/2023 11:17

When is the grammar school not a grammar school?
When it’s in Newcastle, Leicester, Bradford, Bristol, Bury, Derby, Huddersfield, Loughborough, Manchester, Wolverhampton, Portsmouth, Leeds, Huddersfield, Stockport ……

You can not say there are no fee paying grammar schools because people in most of the country will know the local grammar as being fee paying. You can say there are no fee-paying schools in the grammar school system that exists in certain counties. At least I think that’s true. It’s all a question of grammar!

I think the grammar school system (and getting their children into it) is a big part of some parents lives and they are keen to uphold a too narrow definition of the word. Which is why OP got some unneeded hassle.

I went to public school. It was fee paying and not open to the public. That’s grammatically a problem too, also due to historical factors.

mocktail · 09/07/2023 12:19

I guess it's more accurate to say they've kept "grammar" in their name for historical reasons. Either way, they're not grammar schools any more.

Musmerian · 09/07/2023 11:36

mocktail · 08/07/2023 17:19

This ^^

No one in Leeds says their child goes to "grammar school" meaning Leeds Grammar School. Because it's not a grammar school!

Similarly, Harrogate Grammar School is actually a state comp, not a grammar.

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Lolz at the cachet comment! I teach at Bristol Grammar and it’s in the top 100 academically. Manchester Grammar even more academic. The reason they kept the name is that they were once Grammar Schools.

howshouldibehave · 08/07/2023 19:42

Grammar schools you have to pay fees for in England

No, you really don’t! Grammar schools are state schools (free) which you need to pass an entrance exam to get into.

Some other schools may have kept the word ‘grammar’ in their title. If they are few-paying, they are not grammar schools.

x2boys · 08/07/2023 19:28

surreygirl1987 · 08/07/2023 19:04

@Chimchiminie You are wrong. Grammar schools you have to pay fees for in England

Argh no no no. Do people really think these schools are actual grammar schools?? No, they are independent schools and the 'grammar' part is name only... they are not in the grammar school system. So much misinformation on this thread!

I do.understand how the Grammar school.system worked as I did the tripartite system in history in the 80s but in mist parts of the UK the Grammar/ secondary modern system was phased out over 40 years ago ,my town has a,fee paying school.with the name Grammar in it but obviously I'm aware its an independent school.,but many people might not know what Grammar schools were or only have a vague understanding.

surreygirl1987 · 08/07/2023 19:04

@Chimchiminie You are wrong. Grammar schools you have to pay fees for in England

Argh no no no. Do people really think these schools are actual grammar schools?? No, they are independent schools and the 'grammar' part is name only... they are not in the grammar school system. So much misinformation on this thread!

mocktail · 08/07/2023 17:19

Chimchiminie · 08/07/2023 16:10

I think you’ll find those are private/independent schools that have retained the name. A glance at a couple – Leeds, Bristol – bears that out.

The grammar school system is free – these places obviously wish to retain the cache lent by the high academic standards and selectivity of grammar schools proper. Who can blame them.

Show quote history

This ^^

No one in Leeds says their child goes to "grammar school" meaning Leeds Grammar School. Because it's not a grammar school!

Similarly, Harrogate Grammar School is actually a state comp, not a grammar.

Blogblogblogblog · 08/07/2023 16:33

Chimchiminie · 08/07/2023 16:10

I think you’ll find those are private/independent schools that have retained the name. A glance at a couple – Leeds, Bristol – bears that out.

The grammar school system is free – these places obviously wish to retain the cache lent by the high academic standards and selectivity of grammar schools proper. Who can blame them.

Show quote history

There are thousands of children around the country who go to the dozens of fee paying grammar schools listed. In these areas, ‘going to the grammar school’ - will mean you pay. It’s a question of grammar. 😁
We both know you are talking about the grammar school system which operates in a few counties. But for the rest of the country, ‘grammar’ doesn’t indicate ‘free’ so your argument does not carrying any meaning in these areas.

We disagree on the best sort of education, which I think ideally is comprehensive (and streamed within). My DC’s got the highest grades from such a place. But it’s a decent comprehensive with a true mix as we have no grammar schools (except fee paying ones!) near by. Everybody locally just goes to one school as it’s the only school for miles.

However, what ever style of education you go for, the most important thing is your child is happy and thriving, so the OP made the right choice for her child.

Chimchiminie · 08/07/2023 16:10

Blogblogblogblog · 08/07/2023 15:17

@Chimchiminie You are wrong. Grammar schools you have to pay fees for in England:

Bradford Grammar School
Bristol Grammar School
Bury Grammar School
Derby Grammar School
Dixie Grammar School
Hipperholme Grammar School
Hudderfield Grammar School
Hulme Grammar School
Kingston Grammar School
Kirkham Grammar School
Leeds Grammar School
Leicester Grammar School
Lewes Old Grammar School
Loughborough Grammar School
Manchester Grammar School
North Cestrian Grammar School
North London Grammar School
Pardes House Grammar School
Portsmouth Grammar School
Queen Elizabeth Grammar School
Reigate Grammar School
Royal Grammar School, Guildford
Royal Grammar School, Newcastle upon Tyne
Royal Grammar School, Worcester
St Anne’s College Grammar School
St Dominic’s Grammar School
Stafford Grammar School
Stockport Grammar School
Thetford Grammar School
Wisbech Grammar School
Wolverhamptom Grammar School

I think you’ll find those are private/independent schools that have retained the name. A glance at a couple – Leeds, Bristol – bears that out.

The grammar school system is free – these places obviously wish to retain the cache lent by the high academic standards and selectivity of grammar schools proper. Who can blame them.

MrsSamR · 08/07/2023 15:42

NeverDropYourMooncup · 04/03/2022 15:48

@Troisfoisfilles

So by missing out, I mean that they ALL might only get £50 each spent on them for Xmas instead of £100, or that instead of going to legoland or Alton towers for the day, we might just go to the local beach, or that we might only go on holiday for a week instead of 2. It’s not day-day stuff I’m worried about. It’s about the big treats. And the other two will 100% be given the same opportunities as DD1. For instance, when it comes to it, DD2 will be allowed to take the entrance exam for the school too. And if DD3 improves academically, she will also. Or if she wants to continue her favourite activity to a higher level, I’ll put the extra costs involved into that too. In regards to ‘me putting her forward for the exam knowing I wouldn’t be able to afford it’ that’s unfair. She was desperate to try out for it. I sat down with her and gave her all the details about whether I thought I could afford it, how she’d need to have a scholarship and bursary for it to even be a possibility, about how she’d be ‘the poor kid’, about how I might not be to afford all the school trips etc etc. She is very mature for her age and thought about it very carefully beforehand. She really wanted to give it a go.

She won't be the 'poor kid'. Not with a parent in a secure profession and the money for holidays.

The 'poor kid' is the one from a disabled single parent unable to work. The one who hasn't even applied because the cost of the application/registration fees/getting the income declaration officially notarised is too much.

Stop thinking of yourself as poor. You have advantages over a hell of a lot of the families your DC is fortunate enough to have a chance of escaping. And give her the opportunity you are very well able to manage with just a few adjustments - where your downgraded experiences are still well above what hundreds of kids wouldn't have.

(by the way, I wasn't allowed to go to the private school even with a 100% bursary and maintenance grant. I was told it was because I'd be the poor kid. So I got to be the poor kid in the shit school instead - and when you're getting a pasting because you're the freaky brainiac, it really doesn't matter what your IQ is).

I went to private school on a scholarship. No one really cares who the rich or poor kids are so it was a total non issue in my experience. Some kids were undoubtedly wealthy but most were from normal professional families. In fact I found the rich kids tried to play down their wealth: "yes we live in a castle but we're cash poor" type of thing. People seem to use this excuse of not wanting their child to be the 'poor kid' as a reason not to send them and I think that's such a shame as they're missing out on such a great opportunity for something that doesn't really happen!

Blogblogblogblog · 08/07/2023 15:17

@Chimchiminie You are wrong. Grammar schools you have to pay fees for in England:

Bradford Grammar School
Bristol Grammar School
Bury Grammar School
Derby Grammar School
Dixie Grammar School
Hipperholme Grammar School
Hudderfield Grammar School
Hulme Grammar School
Kingston Grammar School
Kirkham Grammar School
Leeds Grammar School
Leicester Grammar School
Lewes Old Grammar School
Loughborough Grammar School
Manchester Grammar School
North Cestrian Grammar School
North London Grammar School
Pardes House Grammar School
Portsmouth Grammar School
Queen Elizabeth Grammar School
Reigate Grammar School
Royal Grammar School, Guildford
Royal Grammar School, Newcastle upon Tyne
Royal Grammar School, Worcester
St Anne’s College Grammar School
St Dominic’s Grammar School
Stafford Grammar School
Stockport Grammar School
Thetford Grammar School
Wisbech Grammar School
Wolverhamptom Grammar School

Original poster

Troisfoisfilles · 08/07/2023 02:47

@Chimchiminie
Apologies for this getting on your nerves again!
As stated originally, it is an independent school which just happens to have ‘grammar’ in its name.
It is a fee paying school which, luckily for my daughter, has a fantastic bursary system in place, allowing her the opportunities she is getting now

OP posts:

Chimchiminie · 08/07/2023 02:02

OP, glad to hear things worked out well – that is awesome that she’s enjoying it. Thanks for updating.

Chimchiminie · 08/07/2023 01:59

Bromse · 04/03/2022 16:55

@Chimchiminie

I thought the whole point of grammar schools is that they’re free?

This is an independent grammar school. I'm sure if there was a free grammar where the op lives, her daughter would have applied and been accepted there.

Miriam101 Fri 04-Mar-22 16:43:24
I think you have to let her go. It's chances like this that can set someone's entire future (not always, but often). She's taken the first step by insisting she sit the exam; to not let her go now she's aced it would be desperately unfair, IMO..................

I agree with Miriam. Please remember, op, that you will not be the only parent at the school who struggles a bit, there will be a few who struggle more too.

What is important is how keen your daughter is to go there and, when she is there, if she settles and likes it. If she doesn't, take her away and find somewhere else. I hope she does though.

Don't let her know about any difficulties with the fees, etc, or she will feel bad about it. I've known people go on and on about the 'sacrifices' they make for their children and that is just not on. At the end of the day, it is the parents' choice and kids do not need a burden of sacrifice on their shoulders. I'm sure you wouldn't be like that by the way but it does happen.

I wish her, you and the whole family every success.

This thread has popped up and got on my nerves all over again lol.

There is no such thing as a fee-paying grammar school, the entire point of a grammar school is that it is free for all and the only barrier to entry is ability.

That is the entire concept of a grammar school.

Original poster

Troisfoisfilles · 08/07/2023 00:13

update***

I did send her. She’s has now been at the school for a year, finishing today.
I can honestly say it was the best decision I’ve ever made. Not only has she done fantastically (averaged 85% in her end of year exams) but more importantly, she‘s so happy and settled- way more than she ever was at primary school. She loves the small classes and the fact that everyone is trying to do well, without fear of being picked on.
We haven’t struggled financially as much as I was worried. A lot of family members chipped in for various bits and pieces and I found a facebook second hand uniform page.
I’m so happy she pushed me into letting her go. She definitely needed it and I’m glad that for now at least, we can facilitate it.
i will try my best to keep her there and when the time comes, if appropriate, I will try to send the other two.

OP posts:

sweetbellyhigh · 09/03/2022 20:17

@Landedonfeet

As I say I’ve had both at state and primary I constantly found the state asking for money Money for this trip weekly money for school lunch Donations to this charity £2 to where home clothes Bring in cakes for this sale

Et
Absolute none of the above at the prep school.

No shit Sherlock. State schools run on the smell of an oily rag.

Blogblogblogblog · 07/03/2022 23:25

Where I grew up ‘the grammar’ was the private school down the road.
Confused me when I chatted to a girl from Lincolnshire talking about her grammar school. I thought all grammars were fee paying.
I still wouldn’t assume ‘grammars’ were non fee paying. It’s only on mumsnet where they normally are as so many of you are from down south