To think that equestrian events are ridiculous

But wild horses are exactly that, wild.
Domestic horses have been genetically bred and selected over thousands of years . They are no longer wild and would not survive if turned loose. As shown by what happens when a horse is abandoned by an owner.
The same is true for all dogs, cows, sheep, chickens etc etc…..
They are now genetically predisposed to be good pets, good for riding or working.
There are sadly many people who mistreat these animals. It does not necessarily follow that all domesticated animals are miserable and being exploited.
I’m not sure where you live but the ‘wild horses’ in the new forest are owned by someone. They are looked after and vetted as needed. They are at least semi-domesticated.

I doubt Xenophon would call what the current 50 year old Olympic athletes are doing to the sounds of show must go on "dressage" in his sense of the word.

It's not that different. My experience isn't in dressage but in classical riding taken from the masters in Vienna. The movements are all
I I the same in the long run as is the skill

@Goblincore snd again, you are telling me this? But that’s you putting your opinions on the animal. You have no firm evidence of this, you think given the choice of living wild on the fells most horses would chose to be living in a field and being ridden? I dont think you have any proof of this, it’s all conjecture. It suits your narrative, like people who say indoor cats love being kept inside.

I agree it's lovely to watch wild ponies though. But the day to day routine of looking after a horse or pony can be a really life affirming experience.
I guess that's why us mad horse owners do it!

There are herds of wild ponies around where I live ( I should say semi wild as some have owners but they are left to their own devices). It’s a beautiful sight and I think they are pretty happy with their lot.,. Not being ridden or made to prance around anywhere. I know if I were a horse that’s definitely where I would choose to be.

And that bond is why horses are such wonderful animals. Its why they are so gentle with disabled riders, people with MH problems often find being around horses is helpful. Not herds of wild horses running around as they please, but domesticated animals, stabled, ridden in saddles bridles and bits. They are very intuitive animals and when you are riding a horse and you know you have a perfect bond, as I do with my horse, there is nothing better. I wish everyone could experience it.

Should say some abuse as in like anything there is someone that will abuse it - but this is not true for the vast vast majority of ridden horses, thankfully

@Thatsjustwhatithink I think what others are trying to explain is that if a horse was forced to do something reluctantly out of pain only, you wouldn't see what we are seeing in most horses - certainly in the British Olympic horses

Their body language is not showing fear and pain (in fact, any kind of tension is marked down in dressage). Horses don't know how to pretend. Some bridles apply nose pressure that horses don't like, that's what PPs are referring to. If your horse is relaxed in a bit and then shakes it's head and swishes it's tail in a bitless bridle, riders will recognise that's because it is uncomfortable in the bitless bridle. It isn't because the horse is suddenly revering in its newfound ability to defy orders, because instead of tension that would probably manifest itself as the horse bucking for joy and disappearing at a rate of knots towards the nearest grass.

Horses do respond to pressure and release, it's true, but that doesn't even need to be physical contact. Techniques such as Monty Roberts' join up use pressure and release via body language. Although I will say that "natural horsemanship" techniques are open to abuse like any other. Of course there is sadly abuse, and plain bad riding, but a lot of horses and particularly at a high level do genuinely love their work. You might be able to train a horse to reluctantly do various things but really can't coerce a horse to pretend to be relaxed in a Grand Prix dressage test with no indicators of tension, nor pretend to be eager to jump round an enormous course of show jumps or fixed obstacles. Some horses do lose their love for it and not want to do it anymore at that level, and then there is nothing anybody can do to convince them. Generally those horses will take a step back and be used as a schoolmaster maybe for a young rider at home or competing at a very low level which the horse is more comfortable with.

I think what the posters arguing against riding horses are missing is that horses are no longer wild. They are domesticated. They actively like having a job to do. They mostly want to please. They are happy to do dressage or go for a hack. My horse wants to do what I want, not becuase I hurt him but because a lot of horses are dutiful and intelligent and actively want to do what the rider wants, as long as they trust the rider, which doesn't come through pain or fear.

[quote BFrazzled]@IonaLeg

It is currently unsustainable for humans to stop eating meat and dairy. Just as until 150 years ago it was unsustainable to not ride horses.I do eat meat and in this way I am ready to admit that I exploit the cows and chickens (and I would not argue that cows are willing to be slaughtered or that it is OK because slaughter is humane).

The difference is that nowadays riding a horse is just a hobby, a way to feel your free time. We are discussing how perhaps this is not the best of hobbies. If you wish to compare this to eating meat, it is like paying to have a hamburger made from real calves once artificial meat is freely available.[/quote]
In what way is it unsustainable? Need a lot more explanation of that, it certainly isn’t an undisputed fact.

Humans can survive and thrive on a vegetarian diet, so you eat animals for a reason that is purely selfish - they taste good. Eating meat is purely for pleasure. Why does that justify exploitation in your opinion? When you can eat a hugely varied, healthy and environmentally friendly diet that involves no meat at all, why allow animals to suffer so you can continue to do so?

Especially as you are SO concerned about animal welfare! You’re not passing yourself off as the average person who’s not that bothered about animals. You’ve set yourself up as someone who cares deeply about animals. Much more than the people who have had them for years, apparently. So what’s your reasoning? How can you care about animals so much that you’ve started this thread claiming riding is cruel… but you still pay for animals to be killed for your pleasure?

No doubt I’m just being profoundly stupid, but an explanation of this position would really help me see exactly where you’re coming from.

[quote Thatsjustwhatithink]@Polkadotties

@sadperson16 has made the point much more simply and effectively than I did. If you don't put the the reins, bridle/bit on the horse would not do what you want. No matter how many apples you promised them or talked nicely to it. It would eat your apple then walk off. It's doing it because it doesn't have the choice. It's also doing it because it hurts if they don't do it.

Horses have had an absolute huge impact of human history: from warfare to agriculture to travel. Humans needed control of such an animal. Whilst there has been advances in kit, in essence it's very much the same- nearly all cultures (there are some exceptions) figured out the 'weak points' on a horse and exploited them. Flanks and mouths have always been targeted. Metal scarring on the bones of horses has been found by anthropologists.

The reason it hasn't changed that much is because it works. Bitless riding is harder and more dangerous, because strangely enough a horse doesn't actually want to be controlled the whole time.

But I think we will have to agree to disagree. I'm a bit over the insults by some posters. You never lose debate faster than when you insult someone, but it's also just wearing.

Have a good evening all[/quote]
Google free schooling. I do this regularly

@Polkadotties

@sadperson16 has made the point much more simply and effectively than I did. If you don't put the the reins, bridle/bit on the horse would not do what you want. No matter how many apples you promised them or talked nicely to it. It would eat your apple then walk off. It's doing it because it doesn't have the choice. It's also doing it because it hurts if they don't do it.

Horses have had an absolute huge impact of human history: from warfare to agriculture to travel. Humans needed control of such an animal. Whilst there has been advances in kit, in essence it's very much the same- nearly all cultures (there are some exceptions) figured out the 'weak points' on a horse and exploited them. Flanks and mouths have always been targeted. Metal scarring on the bones of horses has been found by anthropologists.

The reason it hasn't changed that much is because it works. Bitless riding is harder and more dangerous, because strangely enough a horse doesn't actually want to be controlled the whole time.

But I think we will have to agree to disagree. I'm a bit over the insults by some posters. You never lose debate faster than when you insult someone, but it's also just wearing.

Have a good evening all

@sadperson16 what are you referring to?

@Polkadotties, I don't think a horse applies its own bit and handles its own reins?

No more than an elephant chooses to prance around in a circus.

It’s pretty obvious, therefore, that animal cruelty isn’t something OP cares about. If it was, she wouldn’t eat animals. So it’s very hypocritical for her to suggest she’s coming from a position of concern for animal welfare when she’s so happy to disregard animal welfare when she’s the person who benefits from cruelty.

This thread exists because OP thinks everyone involved with horses is a rich toff who looks ridiculous while competing, and she doesn’t like that. But instead of owning that, she’s presenting this as a question of animal cruelty because it gives her a patina of moral authority that makes her feel good. It’s totally legitimate to point out that this moral authority is bullshit coming from someone who clearly doesn’t actually care about animal welfare.

If you didn't do it what would happen...would the horse just choose to do something different?

Yes. They would. They often do. You can't correct a horse, or train it, with pain. This is a prey animal whose instincts are to flee from pain and the sources of it, quickly. They don't just stand there and take it.

If I ask a horse to perform a lateral movement seat, leg, rein aid in that order and the horse doesn't, the answer is not "ask harder" or "use more forceful aids". In a contest of sheer muscle I am never going to win, and the fundamental point of dressage is still to get the result from the smallest aids possible. The answer is "try again, and communicate better" -- likely my seatbones weren't level, my shoulder was creeping forward and he didn't have the balance.

And the why is important. What right do you have to apply significant pressure to an animals body to get it to go what you want? If you didn't do it what would happen...would the horse just choose to do something different?

The only time I would ever apply so much pressure to potentially cause pain would be in a serous situation I.e horse spooks out on a hack and is galloping towards oncoming traffic.
Likewise I would probably push a child out the way of a car if they were about to be hit.

I really do not get why some posters are resulting to insults and name calling. If you've got a sound logical point based on evidence why go down that route?