Page 5 | To think that equestrian events are ridiculous

BFrazzled · 2021-08-02T22:05:12+00:00

In the Olympics. Poor horses. This ridiculous dancing in dressage, who the hell thought of that? There was one winner of the dressage contest who supposedly also won in the nineties. No mention of the horse, guess it was with a different one then [hmm]

alloalloallo · 06/08/2021 10:34

@VeryLongBeeeep

..And the bit where there’s apparently no abuse happening with dressage horses. Anywhere.

Literally not one person has said it doesn't happen anywhere. But you're cherry-picking the responses you want to acknowledge, ignoring the ones that actually give some informed insight to practices within equestrianism or answer questions you've asked, and making up strawmen like the comment above when parts of your argument are blown out of the water. You're not posting in good faith here.

Yes!

Of course there is abuse and cruelty in equestrianism. Like there is everywhere in life. No one is denying it and no one thinks it’s ok.

My own 2 horses are former rescues. My elderly retiree was removed by the RSPCA from a former owner for horrific neglect.

My daughter’s pony was literally bought off a meat wagon at the end of a sale by a friend. When she’s clipped out, you can see hundreds of scars from the abuse she’d experienced in the past

I’ll be damned if either of them ever experience anything like that again.

Professionally fitted bits, bridles and saddles - meh

Iquitit · 06/08/2021 10:27

@CarlottaValdez

Literally not one person has said it doesn't happen anywhere

They have - quite a few commends saying that you can’t make a horse do anything they don’t want to do they must be enjoying it.

Well, you can't make a horse do anything it doesn't want to do unless you subscribe to pain and punishment methods. The horse world as with dogs, have moved away from that, and by and large train with methods that aren't reliant on pain and fear - reading your posts it seems that you are insisting that all equestrians use pain and fear as standard - they don't. For many reasons, mainly because they are no longer required to work for us, their 'use' has changed from being a means to an end, and needed for us to survive, to an animal some people like to spend time with and build a bond with - a bond built on pain and fear doesn't last long, there will always be something a horse fears more than you. Horses are by nature cooperative animals, they have to be to live in a herd. When we as humans communicate on their level, they understand and cooperate for the most part - and are healthier, have less problems and live longer when that cooperation is a result of trust rather than fear. As humans we've worked this out for the most part and the basics of training have moved away from pain and fear to communication and trust. If my horse really doesn't want to do something, it's unacceptable to me to beat the living daylights out of him, or pull harshly on his bit to make him - as it would be to most people, including equestrians. Instead I work with him, work on my relationship with him, gain more trust, look at his body language and react accordingly 90% of being around a horse is reading their body language, I don't just assume he doesn't or does like something - I've learned what his body language is like in several different situations and what his physical reaction is in those situations and tie the two together. But, ultimately, if you are saying that because a horse can't speak with words, we have no idea if they're enjoying something - how do you know they aren't?

liveforsummer · 06/08/2021 09:56

They have - quite a few commends saying that you can’t make a horse do anything they don’t want to do they must be enjoying it.

The thing is that's just the simplified version. What it means is you can't make horses do something and consistently perform well at it or be willing. Horses that don't enjoy what they are doing won't keep winning medals, or races or even make suitable riding horses if that's what they hate (few do, usually it's a pain issue such as dental or muscular which can be diagnosed and resolved)

CarlottaValdez · 06/08/2021 09:49

Literally not one person has said it doesn't happen anywhere

They have - quite a few commends saying that you can’t make a horse do anything they don’t want to do they must be enjoying it.

VeryLongBeeeep · 06/08/2021 09:48

..And the bit where there’s apparently no abuse happening with dressage horses. Anywhere.

Literally not one person has said it doesn't happen anywhere. But you're cherry-picking the responses you want to acknowledge, ignoring the ones that actually give some informed insight to practices within equestrianism or answer questions you've asked, and making up strawmen like the comment above when parts of your argument are blown out of the water. You're not posting in good faith here.

Hopeisallineed · 06/08/2021 09:46

@stanlie 😂

alloalloallo · 06/08/2021 09:37

@countrygirl99

I think the accusations of thick etc arise because it doesn't matter how much we point out that the but isn't the steering mechanism, your arsenal snd legs are (and not by kicking either) somr posters still think they no better and persist with thinking they know it all. What conclusions would you draw? Either are not capable of understanding or they don't want to understand because it would destroy their cruel,elitist narrative.

Yes!

You don’t steer with the bit and you don’t kick. I don’t know how many times it needs to be said.

How many times does it need to be said that you can tell how a horse is feeling or whether they like something by reading their body language. I even posted some links a couple of pages back.

Horses have preferences and are perfectly capable of communicating them.

TheCrowening · 06/08/2021 08:56

@sadperson16

Vienna? Google how they make the horses do that stuff.

You know that’s not dressage, right? Nobody is defending that.

Stanlie · 06/08/2021 08:00

Neighsayers

Goblincore · 06/08/2021 07:45

I think the oddest thing about this thread is that the naysayers haven't paid any attention to the very knowledgeable replies from people who have first hand experience.

sadperson16 · 06/08/2021 07:42

Vienna? Google how they make the horses do that stuff.

countrygirl99 · 06/08/2021 04:51

I think the accusations of thick etc arise because it doesn't matter how much we point out that the but isn't the steering mechanism, your arsenal snd legs are (and not by kicking either) somr posters still think they no better and persist with thinking they know it all. What conclusions would you draw? Either are not capable of understanding or they don't want to understand because it would destroy their cruel,elitist narrative.

Hopeisallineed · 05/08/2021 21:26

They don’t get culled. They are endangered snd protected. They are not the same as Dartmoor ponies.

Goblincore · 05/08/2021 21:20

Aren't the fell ponies periodically rounded up and go back to their owners like those in the new forest?

Do you know what ponies are culled more than any? Wild ponies. Dartmoor ponies have to be culled because people don't want them as riding ponies. That's a good example of why ponies need to be able do a job.

TheCrowening · 05/08/2021 21:17

The dressage competition looked ridiculous and violent

😂😂😂

Goblincore · 05/08/2021 21:16

[quote Hopeisallineed]@Goblincore snd again, you are telling me this? But that’s you putting your opinions on the animal. You have no firm evidence of this, you think given the choice of living wild on the fells most horses would chose to be living in a field and being ridden? I dont think you have any proof of this, it’s all conjecture. It suits your narrative, like people who say indoor cats love being kept inside.[/quote]
It's not my "narrative"

It's the way horses are kept and have been for hundreds and hundreds of years. Do you not believe that horses can enjoy being ridden, jumping with a rider, doing dressage even at a low level? They absolutely do! It's totally obvious when a horse is happy - their great big ears tend to give it away!

Hopeisallineed · 05/08/2021 21:16

They are feral then. They may have owners ( in some cases) but I think that’s just semantics, they lead a feral life. There. Does that explain it more easily for you? I’m not sure what your point is but it doesn’t really alter my initial post.

Polkadotties · 05/08/2021 21:12

They are not wild though. You said they are wild and they aren’t stabled. All fell ponies are owned by someone. They may be ‘free’ but they are not wild.

Original poster

BFrazzled · 05/08/2021 21:12

@IonaLeg I am not turning this thread into a discussion about the sustainability of vegan diet. It already has 33 pages.

(But you are welcome to start another thread and I will gladly comment there if you really really want to hear what I personally have to say on the issue (but I am not a nutritionist or an economist so it won't be anything you couldn't find by simply googling))

OP posts:

Hopeisallineed · 05/08/2021 21:09

@Polkadotties they are definitely semi wild, they don’t get ridden and they roam the fells doing what they please. They don’t get herded up or stabled or fed or made to do dressage. Being stabled wasn’t the only criteria for being wild. 🙄

Original poster

BFrazzled · 05/08/2021 21:06

@Goblincore

I agree it's lovely to watch wild ponies though. But the day to day routine of looking after a horse or pony can be a really life affirming experience. I guess that's why us mad horse owners do it!

I actually absolutely understand it.

But this is about benefitting humans, not horses themselves. Not saying that this is purely reprehensible but out treatment of horses is worth looking at with critical eye. There is a world of difference between an amateur riding his pony once a week and training a horse for competitions.

OP posts:

Incywincyspiderspleasegoaway · 05/08/2021 21:05

@BFrazzled I like these quotes from Xenophon

"For what the horse does under compulsion, as Simon also observes, is done without understanding; and there is no beauty in it either, any more than if one should whip and spur a dancer. There would be a great deal more ungracefulness than beauty in either a horse or a man that was so treated. No, he should show off all his finest and most brilliant performances willingly and at a mere sign.”

"The rider should give him the rein, so that he may display the noblest feats which a horse can perform of his own free will, to the satisfaction of the spectators."

The music is just a backdrop to what the horse is achieving which is impressive not because it's tricks but because the Grand Prix movements take the athleticism, strength and mental ability built up over years of training (I could probably teach a horse to do a trick like bowing on command or striking out a foreleg to "count" in a couple of days at a push, but I don't think I'll ever have the ability to teach piaffe and passage)

Polkadotties · 05/08/2021 21:05

They aren’t wild. Just because a horse isn’t stabled doesn’t make it wild

Hopeisallineed · 05/08/2021 21:02

I live in Cumbria. They are fell ponies.As I said some have ‘owners’ in that they are occasionally fed but many just are wild and roam the fells around where I live and find there own food. They are not stabled in winter.

IonaLeg · 05/08/2021 21:00

@BFrazzled

In what way is it unsustainable? Need a lot more explanation of that, it certainly isn’t an undisputed fact. This is discussed elsewhere on the net - feel free to start another thread if you feel like it :) I am sure that although not everyone thinks so you will find many solid arguments supporting this opinion. I am certain it is redundant to repeat them here. (Are you yourself vegan? I assume not, and neither are most humans for as long as human race exist.)

You are making some weird pretend game with yourself that one needs to be "SO concerned" about animal welfare to be taken aback by the sight of the horse being forced to participate in some weird outdated show. I also find it distasteful when people hit and abuse dogs, and so do most normal people in this country - while enjoying their full English breakfast and non-vegan Sunday roast.

What a cop out!!! Surely you knew when you made that ridiculous claim you’d have to back it up? I’m not even asking for sources; a simple clarification about what, exactly, is unsustainable about eating a diet which is healthy, ethical and environmentally friendly would suffice.

You’re back-pedalling and deflecting hard now, but the reality is YOU decided you were a person in a position to tell horse riders that we’re cruel, you suggested your comments would help us to ‘think critically’ about an issue you must know we know more about than you, you presented your opinion as absolute fact. Don’t you think it’s perfectly valid for people to ask you to examine your own behaviour in return?

Know thyself, OP. Are you willing to think critically about your own behaviour, or are you only interested in examining behaviour you don’t yourself participate in?