To think that equestrian events are ridiculous

@Thatsjustwhatithink

@Polkadotties

Interestingly (and one of the reasons I'm not keen on horse eventing/competition) the reason that we can trace bloodlines of horses and understanding their heritage and how/where they were domesticated is because a bit does unique damage to a horse mouth bones and teeth.

You can trace which peoples had horses by looking at the tools/bones for that era and all show damage from the bit.

Please can you find me a link to this research? Having done equine studies, and having 2 vets in the family (one of whom is an equine specialist) I have never heard of this. Please do enlighten me (us).

[quote Thatsjustwhatithink]@Polkadotties

Have a look a how a bit fits in the horses mouth. Firstly it's metal. It's designed to sit on the soft cartilage and under the roof of the mouth. The reason they are designed like this is because the mouth has a lot of nerves here and that is is very painful is the horse doesn't comply.

Horses will often attempt to put their tongue over the bit to stop it pushing in the the roof of the mouth.

If you run your tongue at the back of your own teeth you'll find that soft cartilage. Easier still if you don't have wisdom teeth. Go and get a bit and place it over your tongue and with the metal on the cartilage. Then ask someone even gently to tug on it.

As you can get bridles without bits and you can choose not to use one, you have to ask yourself why as @Nixandwotsit has said why riders continue to use them and spurs. The answer is that it's better for control and easier. It has nothing to do with horse welfare.[/quote]
You're describing only one type of bit - that is used less and less these days. Lots of people now using bits with lozenges or straight bars that do not press in to the horses roof like a standard jointed bit. In all my years of riding and working in yards with 40+ horses I've only ever come across one that put their tongue over the bit. It's not something they generally do. Many horses do not like nose pressure and don't take to bitless.

@Thatsjustwhatithink 🤣 I’m sorry but you are just being obtuse now.
My horse does ‘talk’ to me. I read his body language, I read his mood. He might not speak words but we definitely communicate with each other.
If you don’t understand this then there is no point in continuing this discussion.

Watching a horse run about without a rider or all that kit on them is an absolute delight.

But if this bit is so great you could wear one too when you're riding the horse. Tightened up with a full face bridle.

The man in the video, Jeff, says that when people use bits for control they are using pain compliance. He says that bits are an advanced tool used for refinement, that you should hardly be able to tell when the rider moves the reins to use them. So most of the time, however wonderful the movement is that you are riding, the reins have slack in them. When the bit comes into play it's a touch on the reins with the little finger (yes, use the little fingers) and release instantly as soon as the horse responds. I know I'm wasting my typing here... but I think many of us in the UK are limited in our view of horsemanship by our previous experience and need to look out for examples of excellence.

If you'd ever ridden horses you'd know how much they enjoy it. You can tell by their body language, their ear positions in particular. If their ears are pricked or kind of flopped sideways, they are keen or relaxed. It's when they're flat back that they're really not enjoying it.

Did you not watch the cross country and see how keen the horses are to run and jump?

I am very aware of how a bit works thank you, there is no need to be so preachy.
My horse has a bit that fits him, I ride with light sympathetic hands. The bit is one of our methods of communication.
I tired him bitless, he didn’t like it.

@countrygirl99

So I take it you don't use bits or spurs? Which is great if so.

@Polkadotties

Have a look a how a bit fits in the horses mouth. Firstly it's metal. It's designed to sit on the soft cartilage and under the roof of the mouth. The reason they are designed like this is because the mouth has a lot of nerves here and that is is very painful is the horse doesn't comply.

Horses will often attempt to put their tongue over the bit to stop it pushing in the the roof of the mouth.

If you run your tongue at the back of your own teeth you'll find that soft cartilage. Easier still if you don't have wisdom teeth. Go and get a bit and place it over your tongue and with the metal on the cartilage. Then ask someone even gently to tug on it.

As you can get bridles without bits and you can choose not to use one, you have to ask yourself why as @Nixandwotsit has said why riders continue to use them and spurs. The answer is that it's better for control and easier. It has nothing to do with horse welfare.

Crap not chap

[quote Thatsjustwhatithink]@NotMyCat

"Asking with my heal"

I just can't imagine that sentence being used for anything else because you know it sounds wrong.

I learnt to ride horses as part of my former career. The horses were well looked after and the stables adored those horses. But, the reality was that I had to kick a horse (however gently) to get in to do what I wanted. I had to put metal against the soft cartilage of its mouth to ensure it went were I wanted it to go.

Overall I'd just never so that to a dog or human so it didn't sit well with me. I wouldn't ride an zebra or even a less endangered species.[/quote]
Sounds like you were just a chap rider. Needing to kick and steering with the bit 😯. Sounds like you don't ride anymore and frankly that's a good thing.

There's a video of the dressage horse of Carl Hester returning to his field with his mate and going in, rolling on one side, getting up, executing a foot perfect pirouette, and rolling on the other side before doing a lovely elevated trot down the paddock. Only thing on that horse was a fly rug.

If you watched the start box in the X country, many of the horses were bouncing around and 'dancing' on the spot and launched out the start box when the starter said 'Go!' - the rider wasn't making them do that, that was the horse keen to go out and get cracking, mine used to be very similar.

If you watched the vet inspection, some of them bounced and threw themselves around through the excitement, and did some of the moves that appear in dressage (and some that definitely don't!) When they're meant to be trotting in a straight line, so the person handling the horse is actually trying to not get that response.

It's a similar thing to when a dog gets excited for a walk, only this is a half ton dog with metal feet.

The real issue here is the stereotype that's so entrenched in society about horses only being for the elite, as with most sports, what it costs to get to the top is beyond the reach of some, but on a general level, the BHS and other organisations have done some really good things to open up horse riding and care to everyone. I benefited from such a scheme because my parents had no money, and got my first horse at 30 after years of riding other people's in return for looking after them. I worked in the stables in return for lessons as a kid.

Ultimately though, it doesn't matter how much equestrian pursuits are opened up or how many of us show we're not from well heeled backgrounds - people are welded to their own stereotype and won't listen because no one likes to be wrong do they?
I find it quite funny that on the one hand, as a min wage care worker I'm the lowest of the low, yet sit me on a horse and suddenly I'm a well heeled, posh twat because I know what to do.......

But, the reality was that I had to kick a horse (however gently)

If you kicked dds horse, however gently, he'd probably buck you off. Having a few lessons at a riding school does not a rider make.

What interests me is that a lot of pages back someone posted a video of a rider on a grey horse doing the most beautiful "dressage" movements on a horse being ridden with no saddle or bridle. Ignored by all - the horse "experts" and those who know nothing. I watched and thought how wonderful it would be if the horses at the Olympics moved like that, with such freedom and grace. There would be no arguments about them looking stressed or being ridden unkindly for sure.
There was also a post from a horse trainer who has experience of rehabbing dressage horses, who explained that she trains without using bits. No comments on that either.

I lived in the States for a while and attended events where amazing riders such as Sheila Varian and Buck Brannaman took part. I've never been able to look at high level dressage tests in the same way since.

For anyone still reading and not dismissive - I rode at two clinics with this man - look at what he's doing with his horse with no bit in the mouth... he wears spurs - it's part of the outfit - but teaches that if you have them for the rare times they are needed they should be rowels and run softly over the horse, like a wheel turning. But look at this with no bit... I'd watch this all day at the Olympics

You can’t compare bits used in the Roman times or whenever to the bits used today. nsbits.com/products/mouthpiece/team-up/team-up this is what I use. It’s a gentle bit that is made to work with the horse not against the horse.
A bit doesn’t go anywhere near a horses teeth.
To add to my horse’s extensive list of professionals that he sees, he also sees a dentist every 6 months who checks his teeth, files off any sharp edges, feels his gums etc.
My horse would immediately tell me if he wasn’t happy in his bit. I would be on the floor in seconds!

@Polkadotties

Interestingly (and one of the reasons I'm not keen on horse eventing/competition) the reason that we can trace bloodlines of horses and understanding their heritage and how/where they were domesticated is because a bit does unique damage to a horse mouth bones and teeth.

You can trace which peoples had horses by looking at the tools/bones for that era and all show damage from the bit.

[quote Thatsjustwhatithink]@NotMyCat

"Asking with my heal"

I just can't imagine that sentence being used for anything else because you know it sounds wrong.

I learnt to ride horses as part of my former career. The horses were well looked after and the stables adored those horses. But, the reality was that I had to kick a horse (however gently) to get in to do what I wanted. I had to put metal against the soft cartilage of its mouth to ensure it went were I wanted it to go.

Overall I'd just never so that to a dog or human so it didn't sit well with me. I wouldn't ride an zebra or even a less endangered species.[/quote]
I don't kick! If you watch the dressage, they aren't kicking and flapping. I nudge/squeeze. A horse can feel a fly land on them, all you need to do is use your leg to apply pressure
Put your hand around your arm and squeeze lightly. It doesn't hurt, it's pressure
The same as you guide a dog using a lead or nudge your DP in the side to say nudge over

This is why you teach them from the ground first because you need to be able to ask a horse to move over for safety reasons. If they stand on your foot, you don't have ten minutes to negotiate with a carrot, you use the flat of your hand and say oi budge over

My horse is an endangered species. He is an Irish draught. So much care and love is put into the breeding of IDs to ensure clean bloodlines, no inbreeding, and it’s produced a horse that is an amazing all rounder

I do use treats occasionally. My horse was difficult to get on. To help teach him to stand still he was given a small treat once I was on. This stopped him walking off. Now when I get on he doesn’t walk off but turns his head round for the treat. He doesn’t get a treat, he gets a pat or a scratch on his withers instead, this is still a ‘reward’ that the horse recognises.

And another thing. A lot of horses and ponies cannot be fed treats constantly. They would end up with life threatening incredibly painful conditions such as laminitis.

@NotMyCat

"Asking with my heal"

I just can't imagine that sentence being used for anything else because you know it sounds wrong.

I learnt to ride horses as part of my former career. The horses were well looked after and the stables adored those horses. But, the reality was that I had to kick a horse (however gently) to get in to do what I wanted. I had to put metal against the soft cartilage of its mouth to ensure it went were I wanted it to go.

Overall I'd just never so that to a dog or human so it didn't sit well with me. I wouldn't ride an zebra or even a less endangered species.

If you think a saddle, bit and Spurs are hurting the horse and that’s after reading this thread then I don’t really know what to can say to change your mind.
My saddle cost thousands of pounds. It was fitted by a professional to make sure it fits both me and my horse. My saddle fitter comes out every 3 months to check the saddle, makes sure it still fits my horse due to fluctuating weight and muscle changes throughout the year. My bit cost a lot of money, again fitted by a profession to make sure it fits and is comfortable for him. Different horses have different sized mouth, different sized tongues etc. Not one size fits all.
My horse has 3 monthly regularly physio sessions to ensure he is in tip top shape.
Horses are flight animals. You cannot train through fear, you just wouldn’t get anywhere!

[quote Thatsjustwhatithink]@Polkadotties

Why can't you ride a horse without breaking it in then? Without a saddle? Without a bit? Without spurs?

If they love being ridden so much surely they'd do it for treats or love?[/quote]
Most people say backed now because broken is the wrong word
Why can't you just put a puppy on a lead and it will know how to heel/walk? Why doesn't a child know how to read? Because you have to teach them! That's what backing is, it's teaching them what left/right/walk aids mean, how to balance with a rider