AIBU to give up a life's work to see my kids grow up

@TheNavigator agree, it astonishes me that girls outperform boys at practically every level of education, yet many people seem to internalise this concept that they should take a back seat when it comes to their career. I’ve also never yet any woman who doesnt want her daughter to do well at school and university and to aim high - yet at some point this falls apart for too many women.

I could understand it more back in the day when the options weren’t there for women. My mum is as bright and capable as my dad, but couldn’t have a career because there was no regulated childcare back when we were small- no day nurseries or registered childminders. Even when I had my kids, it was relatively tough because it was flipping hard returning to work With a 12 week old baby who was still bf. Nowadays ML is long enough that your child can comfortably be weaned and toddling around before you need to return to work (though of course many women still choose to bf for comfort far beyond this.) my point is that if women don’t take advantage of what’s available to them now, which are far better maternity rights Than ever before, when will we ever see a shift in attitudes?

I agree Caelano. I will be at least 20 years older than the OP and I was saddened by her statement her DH couldn't go part time because it would be bad for his career - which meant she had to forgo hers completely. It feels like feminism hasn't moved on in many respects since my children were young, despite the huge increase in maternity leave and introduction of paternity leave. The issue is the internalised messages that it seems women and men have absorbed and don't question. So a trainee surgeon can seriously be advised to get a mummy friendly shop job, to ensure a man is not inconvenienced in the slightest by having children.

It is so strange, we raise girls to do well academically, where they outperform boys, then in the work place there is a total volte-face. The man's job is king and everyone in the family has to be subservient to that. How has that bit of 1950s think been so hard to dislodge?

Although as tax payers pay for it doctors may get flexible working, in most other jobs there is no flexible working right. You can ask and they in most cases lawfully can say not.

We certainly (lawyer - I, teacher him) even 30 years ago were able to prioritise my career over his and indeed agreed that before we married.

My point is that it is predominantly women not men who work p/t, prioritise their DH’s career over their own, and generally play second fiddle in terms of career. Society is not going to progress towards a better balance for all while that’s the norm.

No, I think you're misunderstanding mine. Which is that flexible working legislation is toothless, requests are really easy to refuse and if you want to advance the argument you are, it is much better left out.

I think you’re misunderstanding my point! I’m not talking about how likely employers are to agree to p/t hours or FW requests. I’m saying that for as long as it’s women (not men) who default to making the requests for p/t or FW, society will never progress. Clearly some employers do facilitate p/t or FW because a lot of people do work p/t ... the point is, it’s overwhelmingly women, not men.

You're overstating the significance of something that is essentially toothless. Flexible working requests are primarily granted by employers who would've at least tried to be flexible before the existence of the legislation.

Now, more men actually working part time and flexibly would potentially make a huge difference, especially if it were over a longer period than the typical ML. I have a lot to say about the impact it had on my family unit too. But flexible working legislation and part time working arent necessarily connected, either. I have worked entirely part time since having DC and have made zero requests re flexible working legislation during that time.

The transferable parental leave might only be a small proportion of time- but I believe using it makes a point that exceeds that. It’s about stating as a couple that you are equal parents and that the dad having 2 or 3 months as sole carer is good for him and good for the child. Likewise with flexible working. I agree that it’s not always easy to secure it, but my point is that if men request it as much as women, society is progressing further towards a point where everyone has a better balance.

At the moment, take up of shared parental leave is woeful, and many women still default to being the one to work part time or request Flexible working, while their husbands blithely carry on unchanged.

I can see that the improvements would look amazing to someone who never had access to anything like it, but you overstate their importance. Maternity leave is only a small percentage of the period when childcare is needed, and it's extremely easy to refuse a flexible working request. The employer only has to make a business case why not, and this leaves them very wide ranging scope to deny. I say this as someone whose husband has worked part time and/or flexibly around childcare for years, so my household does walk the walk.

The legislation is there to enable couples to have a better balance than at any previous time in history...mums can now transfer some of their ML to the baby’s father. Any employee can request flexible working arrangements as a permanent thing too. The fact is, if people choose not to use these, we’re not going to see society progress towards men and women being on a more equal footing.

As a woman in my 50s it makes me despair really. Dh and I worked really hard to establish as good a balance as we could; both maintaining our careers while parenting our children and doing all the stuff involved in running a home. And this was at a time when the odds seemed stacked against us... no paternity leave, no transferable leave, no right for fathers to request part time or flexible hours...

I’m not saying it’s always easy to get the balance but by god it’s easier now than it ever had been before. But if people persist in acting as though the man’s career is more important and the woman should be doing a little Job for pin money then we might as well step back 70 years

We certainly do. But I’m still surprised by how many women on this thread still, in 2020, think an intelligent woman should give up their career, to look after children or get a nice little job for pin money.

@Lcats Or perhaps we as a society need to make work more parent-friendly for all parents rather than leaving half the population (women) struggling to fulfil their ambitions.

Lcats they can have a little part time mummy friendly job in a shop for pin money.

Well every time I read a thread like this I have one thing to say to all the people suggesting to leave the job or to retrain as a gp - I hope you strongly encourage your daughters to choose a family friendly profession. It’s just such a waste to let them invest years of their life in education and career that they will ultimately throw away to pick up the kids at 3pm. It also does a lot of disservice to women who are serious about their career and who are discriminated against because their seniors assume they will leave the moment they have kids.

And Openlygay I’m well aware you can live on £40k, even in London, because I’ve done it. The poster I was replying to said that if her husband earned as much as a doctor, she would put up her feet and get a little hobby job, as they would be wealthy enough for her not to have to work any more. I was pointing out that is not really the case, given junior doctors’ salaries.

My comment was about northern cities, not London. Most northern cities have areas where a junior doctor's salary plus the CB you'd be below the threshold for would fund a SAHP without difficulty.

Holidaydreamin Still no idea why you think that was a dig at people who live in the north of England.

There’s no point OP killing herself (I know it’s for a good cause) to say she’s a Dr but then she has missed out on the best years not seeing her kids it’s a really tough call.

I’d be tempted to get a lower paid job too... like the poster suggested. They could get some help.

Holidaydreamin You’ve misunderstood me, I’m from Doncaster.

The “mythical Northern town” was a reference to Mumsnet posters who claim that where they live, not in London, you can buy a country estate easily on minimum wage. Like the Mumsnet chicken. I was pre-empting the people popping up to say they earn £18k and live like kings so of course anybody on £40k lives a life of unimaginable luxury.

And Openlygay I’m well aware you can live on £40k, even in London, because I’ve done it. The poster I was replying to said that if her husband earned as much as a doctor, she would put up her feet and get a little hobby job, as they would be wealthy enough for her not to have to work any more. I was pointing out that is not really the case, given junior doctors’ salaries.

[quote positivelynegative]@Holidaydreamin I think you may have misunderstood that[/quote]
Maybe if you live in one of these mythical northern towns where a five bedroom house costs three and sixpence Oh yes sorry

You are not going to pay the mortgage (or rent) on a two bedroom flat in London on £40k total household income. It’s a good wage, but it isn’t enough to support a wife and two children in the lap of luxury while your wife puts her feet up in a little hobby job. Maybe if you live in one of these mythical northern towns where a five bedroom house costs three and sixpence. Not in the south east.

Or even in most of the real, non-mythical major northern cities. Since the majority of them (not York I wouldn't think) have options available that would allow a family of one earner, one SAHP and two young DC to live a modestly comfortable life on 40k plus CB. Obviously nowhere near London, but it's actually a realistic enough aspiration in other regions of the country.

ChristmasCarcass

‘If my husband was a doctor, I'd have a little part time job in a shop or something’

IME people who are well qualified and successful in their career tend to want to partner someone of similar ability and aspiration.

@Holidaydreamin

I don’t think that’s what that poster meant. Note the use of the word ‘mythical’.

@Holidaydreamin I think you may have misunderstood that

Disgusting comment towards people from the North.