AIBU to give up a life's work to see my kids grow up

I think I deliberately didn't marry another Dr because it just throws all this sexual politics into sharp relief.

When I did have serious relationships with fellow medics in the past they were all clever ambitious guys who felt very much entitled to high flying careers on their own terms and I could basically see that I was going to very likely get pushed out of the way despite being their equal.

With DH he has his own talents in areas that are not the same as mine and we are not trying to both achieve the same thing on the same timetable so it is more possible for us both to get what we want I think. My career is well rewarded and stable but not flexible and his can be poorly paid and insecure but flexible. He can take risks in his career because of my financial security and I benefit from his flexibility to help with childcare

Can't pretend I designed it exactly that way (Just met him in a club and fancied the arse off him) but him not being a medic was a deliberate decision.

I need to object to all the deathbed shenigans.

Yes, you may have regrets in the days leading up to your death (if you know it’s coming), but what about the thousands of days you are alive?

I have a really good brain, had a great job and realistically will now never go back to anything of substance because one of my children has extra needs.

I suspect that if you are someone who has managed to get this far juggling surgical training and small babies/children, you are not going to feel fulfilled having an extra 60 minutes to get out the door in a relaxed fashion, or time to knock together a yummy supper, rather than flinging together a stir fry.

Much of parenting is actually cleaning, washing, waiting, chauffeuring (and for some of us, endless medical appointments and education issues), and some of you may be happy with that. But don’t turn it into a they’re so precious.

My children seem to be benefiting from me being around now far more, and they’re young teens.

I do know, though, that I’ve fed into the future generation that mum is just there for everything,and her sole purpose is to make everyone else’s life work.

So, SO relieved to see you have got practical progress. Good luck OP, you have a wonderful life ahead of you.

I think what people don't get is its quite hard to do medicine 'just a bit'. You can't really just stop at a lower grade for a while and move up again when it suits you.

You are in a training programme for 8-10 years post qualifying and you have to make progress every year, meet expectations and pass exams or you are out. If you are out you lose your 'training number' and you can't get it back at a later date as it's hard to get one especially for surgery. You could get a staff grade job but you would very rarely be able to go back and train to be a consultant at some later date (there are ways but these are very hard)

Perhaps surprisingly after 5yrs at medical school a medical degree alone is not worth very much unless you then complete your 2yr foundation programme. Without that you would not be able to get a staff grade job and you'd struggle even to get very low paid junior locum jobs so you are in for 2yrs post graduation minimum to make it worth it at all. In fact most staff grades have more like 5 years post grad training so they have 2yrs foundation and 3 in a specialty but then leave before the additional 3-5 (and more exams) to become a consultant.

They leave because all this time you are changing jobs every 6 months, often changing hospital and facing commuting or moving house every 6 months, doing crazy shift patterns and also studying for exams in your own time. Usually you get very little notice of your shift patterns or even your expected working days when going to a new job and you have to somehow rejig your childcare every 6 months on no notice.

Talk of taking 5 years out altogether and going back is just not realistic at all. You would lose your licence to practice if you don't show evidence and have an appraisal every year. There are some specific returners schemes for GP but none that I know of for surgery. You'd have to be very determined, probably do observer posts for free and then start again from the bottom rung.

OP therefore either has to push through all this to consultant where at least the job is permanent, all the exams are done, on call is usually less onerous and you can dictate your own terms more or she has to quit training without the exams and extra years and try to get a staff grade job but this will mean realistically losing the opportunity of making consultant at any point.

So it's double or quit really. It's not the pinnacle of your career vs an average career its basically make consultant or don't really have a career at all. There's a lot to be said for getting through this shitty bit as fast as possible (ie full time) and having kids once you make consultant.

“DH likes his job and I like mine and we should both get to work and to parent if we want to.”

This should be the basis of every relationship. When I got onto mine I assumed it was going to be this way. Assuming, I learnt the hard way, it is not the same as knowing. Society does not back this up so it is an uphill struggle. But it has to be done, for your own sake, that of your daughters and sons who will also benefit for less tight gender roles.

OP I am so glad about your update and your plans. Sounds already a better and more manageable place. Your dh does not think the children need someone because he hs not been with them long enough tomknow that they do. But he will. It will benefit him in the long run to have a more rounded vision of his family and his life. He will lose you all if he puts all his egg in the work basket. It will be hard to convince him but you will do it. I can tel you are strong willed and capable. Well done.

I have similar wobbles but in your case OP, it's a worthy career that you love... definitely keep going, just find a way and things will get easier once you are a consultant.

DH is happy to sort out and pay for childcare, wash up, do chores... but doesnt provide any emotional support like a mum would. He plays with them a little but like me doesnt have much free time or energy left after work.

On my side I have to grapple with a souless bureaucratic corporate job i hate but pays well and impossible to get back into if i take a 5 year break. Not possible part time or to step down a notch without a massive cut in which case I'd rather just do something else. Not possible to progress any further without sacrificing even more time with kids. I dont have the balls to change careers mainly cos staying on means I can contribute to private schooling which I want to hang on to as an option because one DC is difficult and may need it.

I had nannies since they were babies but now they are in primary school, I could really do with being part time even if nowadays I dont physically need to do very much for them. Nannies can do a lot but they do not replace or represent a parent; they obviously dont do everything your way and do end up influencing your children subliminally.

Even as teens mine appreciate me being around and it means far more to me than being at the pinnacle of my profession

The OP isn't close to the pinnacle yet, but still training.
If she doesn't complete it, she'll have to take a huge step back. Think not finishing a degree or a PhD after years already into it.
There are periods when we do have to choose what parts of our lives to favour.
The OP isn’t abandoning her children, just arranging for someone else to care for her children for a number of hours.

There are a few memories related to potty training that I would happily sacrifice

Glad you have a p plan that works for you, OP. Good luck and I have nothing but admiration for you and other women in big jobs (from a woman in a medium job who is wistful that she could have done more. Although my race is not yet run).

I do hope your DH steps up too OP

The reason he doesn't feel guilty is because he is a man and no-one seriously expects him to parent his children. He's a saint if he does but if he chooses not to it's no issue
A million little comments and expectations will cement for him that this is true.

If he refuses to drop to 80% he leaves you still shouldering the guilt because you are a woman so it will always be yours. It is much harder for you to choose to work FT than it is for him.

I hope he can see this and that he is a very good man who loves you and your kids enough to challenge these engrained expectations because it's only by men like him stepping up that this will ever become easier for your daughter. Maybe that argument might persuade him.

Men in medicine really are doing this now. I reckon it's only in the last 5 years ( and I will admit the first time I was very surprised and assumed he was an Olympic sportsman) but I have had a succession of male LTFT trainees now doing 60-80% (not in surgery granted). This rotation I have my first ever male- female job sharers (not married to one another). If I ever get a male-male job share I will know we are really making progress.

My DH is not a medic. He is self employed and has a less prestigious and less well paid career and more flexibility. Thus he did more school stuff (although it was me who worked PT when they were pre-school) Still people expressed surprise that it was him and not me at most school events. Some of them thought I was dead apparently. In response I used to say 'well it makes sense financially' as if that were the only excuse (apart from being dead) for a father and not the mother to turn up to the nativity play. Now I say 'we like to share things equally' because actually we do. DH likes his job and I like mine and we should both get to work and to parent if we want to.

"Just locum"

As a surgeon? In one of those 9-5 surgical locums that come up all the time...

If OP steps out of training, it needs to be in a formal, protected, well thought out way. If she quits and 'just locums', there could be no way back.

"You'll never get that time back". The mind numbing nappies, puzzles, standing at play groups making polite conversation, or lonely hanging around the park, while you child ignores you? Well, thank God I never get that back. "Don't leave your child with strangers"- you know people don't just get nannies off the streets, right? That they are childcare professionals? That these are people who enjoy that boring shit? They're good at singing the wheels on the bus, OP is good at taking out appendixes.

Why would a well-chosen nanny be a stranger? They might be a much loved part of the family. Dsis and BIL had nannies for their DC and the DC (now adults) are still in touch with them 20 years later. In one case attending the nanny's wedding which was abroad.

OP - great to read your update. Your children will be fine - you just need to sort the childcare. They will be very proud of you and you're a fantastic role model

You can't get the memories back? Of toilet training and no life of your own? And not being able to go to the loo on your own? mmmmm Your DH needs to step up OP.

Why not Locum for a bit? Pay is awful at the moment anyway and at least keep your hand in. You could be a Speciality Doctor? I think two Doctors requires a lot of sacrifice. It can be done but Surgery is a different kettle of fish.

Do you want strangers raising your children? If they are away from you10+ hours per day, you have already chosen this. It would be better to take some time off until both children are older. If you don't have family to help, this is not sustainable.

Do children stop needing you as they get a bit older? Personally I don't remember being a toddler or even the first few years of primary school, many people leave work for themselves. Nought wrong with that, but many children thrive in childcare with those 'strangers'.

You cannot get those years with your children back. I would thrash out every possible permutation of job splitting/ location change/ alternative career to spend time with them. Even as teens mine appreciate me being around and it means far more to me than being at the pinnacle of my profession

I wouldn't give up and certainly not entirely. I've been in a similar place to you. You may want to consider your options within surgery/medicine and opt for a speciality that has less on call commitment, for example. It's difficult to chose a speciality when we have no dependents and it's not a failure to change track slightly. Many of my friends have swapped into radiology for example.

You can keep going, however and you will get through these awful years of heartbreak. I echo the person who said get the best childcare you can afford. These young years do pass quickly and you've already sacrificed a lot to get where you are. I'm just not sure how you would feel when the kids are more independent if you gave up completely.

The kids will grow up and I don't believe they will be scarred because you weren't at home. A lot of studies show that the level of education in the mother is directly proportional to the level achieved by the children. So, don't worry about the reading is what I'm getting at. I don't think I've ever seen anyone raising their eyebrows and saying, "Mother's a surgeon, of course her child was wayward!"

Best of luck.

Its a tough one OP.

I’m not a doctor. I think it simply boils down to what you want the most? You can’t get them memories or children stages back

Am so pleased you have found a solution that will work for you. If it makes you feel any better I worked all the time my DC were small. We had a fabulous FT live out nanny who stayed for about 6 years and whilst she cost a fortune to employ, we all loved her.

I am now on the verge or retirement and my adult DC say they have never felt they lost out through me working - they are also lucky that my job has funded them through university and paid for cars and holidays. When I point out that I used to worry that I never baked them a birthday cake they just look at me blankly - there was always a cake but they never considered where it had come from

OP, I'm glad you have gained some support and ideas from this thread. I have a friend who is a surgeon and mum of two DC a little older than yours. She is a great mum and no doubt an excellent surgeon - she is also the first person who I'd ask for help if I was in serious trouble because she is kind and very competent - the very epitome of 'if you need something done ask a busy person'! She has a husband who mucks in though and at times has put his career second to hers. Just think of all those people who helped you and supported you along the way (and the people who will be inspired by you in future). You have found something you really want to do - some people never find that. I could give up work but I get a lot of intellectual stimulation from my career (teaching) and feel that I'm contributing to other DC as well as mine. Gosh it was hard when our DC was little though.

Koru Kids is a good agency. We've just hired a nanny from them and they do all the tax etc.

And keep working on that DH. It would be very good for society if more men had insight into the issues of doing professional jobs part time.

This is what sabbaticals, OOPT, OOPE etc are for. All female doctors find this stage tough with kids. Everyone.

Talk to your TPD - there are options beyond quitting or working FT. You CAN take a sabbatical for a year, one of my friends did it, now a cardiothoracic anaesthetist at Barts so didn’t old her back at all.

A good half of my female colleagues went into research/education fellow/Chief Reg jobs to give themselves a bit of a break from FT training (and yes a PhD is significantly less demanding than a full time training post).

Talk to your TPD, tell them you are burning out and need some time out of programme, and think of some plausible way to fill the time so they can approve it.

It's great that you have a plan @doctormumoftwo but is your DH on board with it? From what you have said he might very well refuse to go PT to enable you to finish your training. He's already said he doesn't feel the same the guilt as you. I wish you all the very best of luck

Do you think all families should have a stay at home parent, or is it just women you think should shoulder childcare alone?

Do you want strangers raising your children?

Do you want 'strangers' operating on you and saving your life? Because I do. I owe both my own life and my son's to people who went all the way through medical training and gained the skills to stop me and my baby dying in childbirth. And I didn't stop the anaesthetist and the surgeon to check who was looking after their children as they worked.