To be annoyed at IVF comments

I have sympathy. But having a baby is not a right.

You are wrong. The right to a family life IS deemed a fundamental human right. The banal platitude that having a child isn't a 'right' is IME often trotted out by those who are easily able to conceive biologically. In which case, a) why is having a baby any more a 'right' for them, and b) they'd be the first to be up in arms if anyone tried to remove their right from them.

Procration is a choice. And it's the same choice, whether that baby is conceived naturally or scientifically. IVF has nothing to do with rights whatosever, unless you're thinking about the rights of the child (odd how these usually come last, isn't it)? And it's worth considering that the artificial conception process takes care of that issue with the couple's personal GP signing off a form to evaluate whether, in their opinion, they would pose a risk to any potential child.

As far as I can see, the biological conception route imposes no such safeguarding. It's fairly shaky ground on which to base a case for the very fraught ethical question of 'rights'.

Comments like this are never helpful.

YANBU. Not at all. How dare people suggest that infertility isn't a disease. It's the cruellest disease out there. We're here, biologically, to procreate. All forms of medicine exist to enable healthy life. Life itself is seen to be that valuable. So to be unable to create it where the vast majority of people can do so effortlessly and even without wanting to, is one of the most pernicious diseases of all.

Personally, I think it's grossly unfair that the NHS doesn't fund IVF when it fully funds endless medical interventions due to obesity, dangerous sports and prolonging many lives beyond a point at which any pleasure is left in them.

I think it's heartbreaking to have had this put on hold. I hope you have a successful IVF cycle as soon as possible.

I'm so sorry your treatment has been cancelled. I am in the same boat as you, been ttc for 4 years and was finally getting somewhere in regards to what the problem is and what treatment might help. We were referred to a fertility specialist 2 weeks before lock down and now it has been postponed. Sending you big hugs

I think IVF shouldn’t be funded on the NHS. No one has a right to have a child and if you cannot get pregnant naturally then you should go private and pay.

I'm so sorry OP, infertility is shit enough without having treatment delayed.

Please ignore the empathy-free pricks using this thread to suggest you shouldn't be getting NHS treatment - they will all be either child-free by choice or have not needed IVF themselves to conceive. They have no idea how traumatic it is to desperately want a child and not be able to have one.

@Mullikins I really feel for you. IVF is such a roller coaster without this extra stress for you due to corona virus.

@Twinberry How lovely. Online school lessons just finished so I am off for a walk in the sunshine with my IVF teenager.

I agree with Panic. I draw the line at saying IVF should not be funded on the NHS, but I do wonder if we are doing enough to encourage small families. There are definitely too many people in the world.

And please people, don't get pregnant now. Eat chocolate instead. We have no idea how long any of this is going to last and unless the government grows up, have the pleasures of a no deal Brexit at the end of the year. Double whammy. Do you really want a small baby with all that going on?

From a societal point of view, there's no need for fertility treatments. There's over 7 billion people on the planet. We don't need to create artificial ways of increasing the population.

From the point of view of the individual, then I can absolutely understand the need for fertility treatment.

I'm sorry yours was cancelled op.

@Twinberry not sure if you were trying to put a point to or wind up the people saying they dont think IVF should be funded by the NHS but that's actually not a very pleasant thing for people who cant have kids to read...

as for the debate in hand, I think the way it is atm is reasonable - limited to a certain amount of times, the only thing I would maybe add is that certain criteria should be met (age, smoking, weight etc.) because statistically it's less likely to be successful sadly

@ksf5555xxx I agree!

Viagra certainly isn’t a “needed” treatment more than IVF, but surprisingly as it affect males no one moans about funding it...?!

This, and other issues, are the reasons why when the current crisis ends there needs to be a thorough rethink about the purpose of the NHS, it was established over 70 years ago to deal with sickness. Since then the terms have been stretched to breaking point. I understand that your infertility problems are heart-breaking for you but it's debatable whether its an illness.

If that's your attitude there should be a one child policy or an encouragement for fertile people to limit family size rather than not funding IVF.

I do actually think that the Government should be doing this, or at least discouraging people from having more than 2. The environment can't sustain an ever-growing population. We're stopping at 1.

I'm on the fence personally. I do think it is a bit tactless for people to tell you that they don't think IVF should be funded on the NHS without you bringing it up when you are just explaining how disappointed you are with the cancellations, but I don't think they are unreasonable to hold those views.

The question of whether it is labelled a disease or not is a bit meaningless IMO, and likely a political decision (didn't homosexuality used to be classified as a disease?). It may be the body is not functioning properly, but if the only effect is not being able to reproduce then some will have limited sympathy and see it as a benign condition especially those who do not want children or who think the world is already overpopulated.

Personally, I think the more important thing would be weighing up the costs of the treatment against the potential risk to MH if not carried out. I would be interested in any research in this area if anyone knows of it. It is also important to recognise that for many people IVF will be unsuccessful and those people will have to go through the stress of IVF with no good outcome.

I also think there is a big difference in the public's attitude when looking at a healthy couple in their late 20s/30s who cannot get pregnant vs. a couple in their late 30s who may just be struggling because they didn't meet until they were older.

I'd be interested in seeing any figures about how much fertility actually costs the NHS a year. I have not been able to find this information myself.

@SpillTheTeaa I don’t “need” to do anything thanks!

Type 2 diabetes is the one that for the most part is caused by poor diet and exercise and mostly self inflicted.

@Fimofriend I wasn’t being rude, for gods sake what is wrong with people, I was defending fertility treatment and you still have to moan! it’s just the best analogy I can think of, that if we stop funding IVF where do we draw the line with the NHS?

OP you have my sympathy and I hope that once your treatment can resume that you are successful in having a child.

I was lucky that I could afford to pay for several rounds of IVF and lucky that is 'only' took me four years to have my DD. If I had relied on the NHS my DD wouldn't be here. Living through infertility is pretty grim even though you try to count your blessings.

People will always have strong opinions on what the NHS should cover and honestly I don't know what the answer is.

Having read through many many horrific threads about IVF both on MN and in other places I have felt the need to post as I have see such unkind comments.

Firstly should IVF be free on NHS - often I have seen so many nasty comments on this but I truly truly believe it should because where do you draw the line with things that the nhs pays for?

The mental health implications for not having IVF should not be underestimated and the cost of these should also not be underestimated. Unfortunately there have been many cases of suicide due to infertility.

Another thing I hear very often is how will you afford a child if you cant afford ivf?

The outlay for ivf is very expensive thousands of pounds a time. Now I dont know that many people who could well afford the thousands it costs over cycle because I don't. That doesn't mean to say they cant afford a child.

Another one I have heard too many times for me to count is why not adopt a child there are plenty of children who need homes. My response is this this can apply to any person who wants a child not just the infertile.

IVF may not fix the problem which is one I hear an awful too. I know I am aware of the success rates but it does offer a glimmer of hope to so many.

For me though it comes down to for many people not all is that until you have faced the awful hell that is infertility you will never understand it never appreciate the all consuming nature of it, never appreciate having to accept the only chance of starting a family is though an intervention that may not actually work.

You will never appreciate just how lonely the planet is when you are facing IVF and how close one can become to spiralling out of control because of it.

You will never appreciate how hard it is to act normal and pretend to be happy every time there is a pregnancy announcement.

You will never appreciate the guilt that you feel for being filled with sadness when a friend says they are pregnant.

Facing infertility and climbing mount Everest in flip flops. It seems and for so many is impossible.

@Strawberryshortcake28 No, you're not being unreasonable.

You are missing the point (in the original post, at least) that it's not just NHS treatment that's being cancelled. Private fertility treatment is also being cancelled.

It's unfair that people are getting pregnant the natural way in lockdown, but it's apparently waaaayyyy too risky to get pregnant by IVF. I can see the issues about social distancing, and I agree with the clinics who have decided to see patients who will suffer unduly by waiting due to advancing age.

[Yours with two gorgeous DS from fertility treatment. Once from taking meds to prepare for an IVF cycle and the other from a first cycle of IVF].

If IVF should not be funded because having children is not a right, then antenatal and obstetric care would have to be privately funded too.

Big hugs OP.

I can't stand people who reduce the NHS offering IVF to 'it's taking money away from cancer' as if that's all the NHS does, IVF or cancer.

Infertility means something is wrong with someone's body. We investigate lots of issues about people's bodies not working as they should. We support lots of huge families on the NHS, why not support someone to have one child, thereby fixing the problem the error (wrong phrasing) in their body caused?

Yes you need money to do that, and I don't think IVF is priority number 1, but I also think it deserves a place in the treatments available when lots of other non-urgent treatments are. People who don't agree with it 'just because' or because 'that money could go to cancer' aren't thinking the whole system through. It's not as if you can just turn up and easily get free IVF as it is!

But they won't get that, so no point arguing.

If you think women should be able to freeze eggs and get IVF because they get cancer, then why shouldn't someone in the same situation without the cancer get the same help? They both have the same problem. Why is one more deserving than the other?

How about we save money for the NHS by charging everyone for each scan they have and any treatment they have during pregnancy and charge them for labour and delivery of a baby. It’s a great idea as we would save so much more money than we would just taking away the 1-3 cycles of ivf someone gets.

Or would you posters not be in favour of that as it would affect you??

Being angry won't help anything and, just as you are entitled to your opinion that it should be available on the NHS, others are entitled to believe otherwise.

Hip and knee replacements used to be rationed and, more recently, they aren't given unless you are in such severe pain that it wakes you at night. I would far rather these operations be given, along with cataract operations, surgery that massively enhances the quality of life for (generally) older people. These would lead to better mobility and a reduction in other illnesses resulting from a lack of mobility.

We can't do everything on the NHS. If there can't be joint replacements when needed then I really don't think there should be IVF.

Perhaps we can say third children or above have to be self-funded in terms of antenatal care and delivery and that money can go towards giving people just one child of their own? That seems like a nice compromise, hmm?

@Esspee it isn’t a disease??! Quick. Ring the actual world health organisation and the British medical council and the NHS and tell them they’re all wrong. What is the world coming to when all medical professionals and governing bodies don’t even know what a disease is anymore

@SarahInAccounts maybe maternity services and health visitors should be chargeable with that logic. A c-section is easily £10k+. If you can’t afford all of that, then how can you afford a child?! Do you even know how much IVF costs as a matter of interest?