To think the use of prostitutes just isn't that big a deal?

Probably in order to fund a drug habit?

They re talking about the first one presumably

Liar

@Hihothedairyo Obviously you didn’t take kindly to being asked what choices you made to see yourself homeless with a tiny baby. It’s easy to see why; it’s a very unfair question to ask, based on assumptions that are very unfair to make. Just like your own very unfair assumption that women ‘choose’ their way into brothels. Women don’t choose their way into prostitution any more than they choose their way into homelessness. In fact, homelessness is often the precursor to prostitution, and not every woman has a partner on hand to rescue her out of the situation by renting her a flat, as you did.

@exponential It’s always good eye-roll material when some academic comes along with a ream of studies to persuade the general public that we haven’t the brains we were born with. How about you bend over and study your toe nails while the sex buying men of Britain line up behind you? Do feel free then to come back to us with the results of your latest study.

Of course the men who use prostitutes are crummy bastards. People who pay for sex are lousy selfish people. Doesn’t mean it won’t happen, but you can choose the company you keep.

Unless you are being paid. Then apparently you can put up with anything.

People who claim to use prostitutes are good at discussing this on the Internet. But not in the office or at work. Funny that.

The only exception I’ve known to this is the armed services. And they seemed to like calling themselves “whoremongers”. Make of that what you will.

I noticed in my post above one link was incorrect. In the sentance drug addiction as well-such other stressors may contribute to PTSD etc. for a critique see here. The link should be here

^It's just morally wrong. To pay money for it. And to take money for it.
Both.^

What about if it's gifts, presents, wining and dining, etc?

It's just morally wrong. To pay money for it. And to take money for it.
Both.
Consent is when you do it for free and willingly. When money is exchanging hands for something like this, the whole conversation of consent goes out of the window!! It's no different to someone abusing their power to influence someone to have sex with them - think about it. They wouldn't do it, unless you pay. How can that be called consent?? I'd be disgusted with myself if I felt like I had no option but to pay for it. I'd rather go without!! seriously, you can live without sex, it's not a necessity, it's a nice to have!

@ Elsiebear90 I’m not saying most of them are trafficked or abused or pimped then what was your point in drawing attention to the number of prostitutes who are immigrants?

most of them are having sex they don’t enjoy and don’t want to have so they can get paid .. Most? How do you know? You don’t-you just suspect. Certainly among those prostitutes who have contributed to threads on Mumsnet some enjoyed the sex (at least some of the time) some did not and to some it was a bit Meh. But most? You should not make claims you cannot substantiate.

Abolitionists make lots of claims about the negative mental effects of prostitution claiming high levels of PTSD and depression. While there are a number of academic papers making such claims those papers suffer from a lack of a control group-namely people with precisely the same background who do not prostitute. So some surveys have been done on street prostitutes who not infrequently have issues of homelessness, drug addiction as well-such other stressors may contribute to PTSD etc. for a critique see here.

Also there is a failure to acknowledge that those with pre-existing mental problems (such as depression and anxiety) who cannot hold down a full time job may choose prostitution as it offers relatively high pay for hours worked.here here And see the recent home office funded research herepgs 4,13,15,35. Such people will appear in surveys of prostitute’s mental health but their problems have nothing to do with unwanted sex.

The Vancouver paper you mention here compares the correlates of poor mental in a number of prostitutes. It finds that poorer mental health occurs in those prostitutes who take drugs, work the streets are homeless and from ethnic minorities and who suffered from childhood sexual abuse. What it does not do is the control namely compare the mental health of those with those stressors who do not prostitute nor does it take account of the prevalence pre-existing mental health issues. One conclusion of the paper is that mental health would be better if prostitution was decriminalised.

Examination of mental health of prostitutes operating in a decriminalized environments (New Zealand and NSW Australia) show in New Zealand here compared prostitutes with age matched samples from the general population (so a control of sorts) showed No evidence was found that sex work and increased adult psychiatric morbidity are inevitably associated, although there may be subgroups of workers with particular problems

In another study published in 2008 about Queensland, Australia here concludes Much of the increased levels of poor mental health among illegal sex workers were associated with more negative experiences before, and subsequent to entering the sex industry. These patterns were not seen among women from the legal industry sectors. This research suggests that illegal, street-based sex workers, from whom many previous results have been derived, may show patterns of disadvantage, and health outcomes not seen in sex workers from other industry sectors

Unfortunately both these papers are behind publisher paywalls. One that is not is a report from NSW in Australia in 2012 but compares results from other states The sex industry in New South Wales here reported (p 26) On the whole LASH respondents appear to be well adjusted and comfortable with their occupation, however 10% had high scores on the Kessler-6 psychological distress scale that indicates that they were likely to have a serious mental illness .This was consistent across all states, and is about twice the rate for similar aged women in the general population. These women are likely to have other stressors in their lives such as stigma, drug use, homelessness, social and financial constraints. Health and outreach service providers need to be mindful of this minority and be able to make appropriate referrals when they suspect a sex worker is seriously at risk

So the conclusion is that prostitution per se is not as many claim responsible for poor mental health but rather the conditions under which it sometimes operates

Prostitute/sex worker isn't all one thing.

Call Girl with a glossy website and a mews flat near Shepherd's Market is not the same as a street corner crack whore in Shepherd's Bush.

By your logic, OP, it's ok to do pretty much anything to earn money as long as you 'choose' to do it. Sell your kidney, perhaps? It is society's responsibility to protect vulnerable people from being forced into dangerous 'choices' through desperation.

Women have been selling sex since god was a boy.
So what? A lot of things have gone on 'since god was a boy'. Doesn't mean they all still should. 'It's been going on forever' isn't an acceptable defense of anything.

@ Hinchunup Women who sell/exchange sex are disproportionately disadvantaged -and your evidence is? While it is true that many street prostitutes have had a background in the care system and others have become drug addicts many others have had a normal background and held other jobs before they entered prostitution here

when they are asked as children what they want to do for a living say they want to sell sex. It is a frequent argument put out by abolitionists that no little girl wants to become a prostitute And asked if they want to become estate agents, cleaners-do children have that as an ambition? In fact some little girls do want to become prostitutes here here here and here It’s a stupid argument as well as being untrue.

While it is true that more men pay for sex than women but there is a lot of ascertainment bias. In fact some women do pay for sex here

How can women ever be equal if men think they have a right to buy them?

Here are some stats in the pic.

We hear about the happy sex workers but most are middle class with options (and often are cam girls or similar where they don’t actually touch the men!) and very unrepresentative. And even then they end up with PTSD anyway. Look up Mia Khalifa- former porn star with PTSD.

Women have been selling sex since god was a boy. If and only if i woman wants to use her body to pay the bills, then it is fine. I had a neighbour who choose to pe a prostitue in Germany, her Husband was in the forces, so they had enough money and military housing so were never going to be homless or starve. She was the boss in their marriage so wasnt being forced into it by him, he used to get the mick taken out of him by the lads, he hated it but it was her choice.

@exponential and before you say I have no evidence they suffer worse mental health:

“This analysis highlights the disproportionate mental health burden experienced by women in sex work, particularly among those identifying as a sexual/gender minority, those who use drugs, and those who work in informal indoor venues and street/public spaces. This study was conducted in Metropolitan Vancouver, Canada, where sex workers come from diverse backgrounds, encompassing a range of ages, sexual orientations, education, income levels, and gender expression, although the majority identify as women”

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5735638/

“Psychological distress is higher in women working in sex industry.”

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5806326/

Exposure to paid or unpaid sexual violence may result in symptoms of PTSD. Most prostitution includes the traumatic stressors that are categorized as DSM-IV criterion A1 of the diagnosis of PTSD

In nine countries, across widely varying cultures, we found that two-thirds of 854 women in prostitution had symptoms of PTSD (Farley et al., 2003) at a severity that was comparable to treatment-seeking combat veterans (Weathers et al., 1993), battered women seeking shelter (Houskamp and Foy, 1991; Kemp et al., 1991), rape survivors (Bownes et al., 1991) and refugees from state-organized torture (Ramsay et al., 1993).

It is a clinical and a statistical error to assume that most women in prostitution have consented. Instead of the question, "Did she voluntarily consent to prostitution?" the more relevant question would be, "Did she have real alternatives to prostitution for survival?" The incidence of homelessness (75%) among our respondents and their desire to get out of prostitution (89%) reflect their lack of options for escape (Farley et al., 2003).

Until it is understood that prostitution and trafficking can appear voluntary but are not really free choices made from a range of options, it will be difficult to garner adequate support to assist those who wish to escape but have no other economic choices.

www.psychiatrictimes.com/prostitution-sexual-violence/page/0/1

@exponential you’re missing the point entirely, I’m not saying most of them are trafficked or abused or pimped, I’m saying most of them are having sex they don’t enjoy and don’t want to have so they can get paid for whatever reason. And we know that people who have sex they don’t enjoy and don’t want to have for whatever reason often suffer psychological harm because of it, which is not comparable to doing the ironing when you don’t really want to do it as you and other posters keep protesting. Sex and ironing or cleaning are two very very different activities and are not comparable. How many of us would do a bit of ironing if we got paid £500? Most of us I would imagine, how many would have sex with their next door neighbour for £500? Hardly any, and there’s a reason for that.

Women who sell/exchange sex are disproportionately disadvantaged. Who when they are asked as children what they want to do for a living say they want to sell sex? Also, I haven't yet met a woman who has paid for sex.. Fucking think about the inequality

@Elsiebear90 You are misrepresenting (again) what the evidence says. Of course prostitutes become prostitutes not through their love of sex but because of the relatively large amounts of money for hours worked and the flexible working which enables them to look after their kids (many are single mothers) study or pursue other interests .See here here here for a variety of reasons

In other countries often to avoid grinding rural poverty etc.

While a few enjoy the sex, some hate it and some find it boring (like going to the dentist or cleaning behind the fridge as some Mumsnet prostitutes memorably put it) the major reason is financial. Many enjoy their jobs even if they don’t particularly enjoy the sex.

As you mention the better social support there is especially for single mothers the fewer who are in financial straits which is a major reason why some (but not all) enter prostitution.

I suppose what you are trying to claim that many UK prostitutes are migrants is that they are trafficked. There are many migrants in the hospitality and catering industry (many from Eastern Europe) –are they trafficked? Go to any petrol station-round my way many of the staff are non-Brits-trafficked? No they come here because they can get better money than back home.

Bindel is hardly a reliable source-but its mainly street prostitutes who have physical, sexual and verbal violence during childhood but Bindel (as well as other abolitionists) dishonestly generalize from the experience of street prostitutes to all prostitutes. So for instance one Mumsnet prostitute said I’m a prostitute, and honest to God I’m absolutely fucking sick of being told that I’m being abused in my work or that I must have some kind of childhood trauma in my background. It’s just so insulting to see these kinds of broad-brush assumptions over and over and over again here
The Jeal & Salisbury 2014 paper to which you refer here was a study of street prostitutes in Bristol, their 2007 study of parlour based prostitutes in Bristol here showed that they were better educated than street prostitutes and studies of those who are independent escorts operating via the internet many have degrees here

As another Mumsnet prostitute said Anyway, I will sum up thusly: when I hear "facts" bandied about about prostitution, I am often shocked and think "What the fuck are they talking about? That's not my experience and I don't know anybody who has that experience." When I read "90% of prostitutes are trafficked, pimped, and abused" it literally sounds as bizarre as something like, "90% of the women on mumsnet are alcoholics here

@exponential if the majority of prostitutes enter the profession purely because they want to profit from their love of sex with anyone who will pay why are prostitution rates significantly higher in countries where women are extremely vulnerable to poverty and violence? Why are rates much lower in countries which are proven to be much safer for women in terms of violence and finances? If the vast majority of prostitutes are happy with their job and enjoy it you wouldn’t see such stark differences in rates between first world countries where most women have the safety and ability to earn enough money to be comfortable without resorting to sex work vs third world ones where prostitution may be the only way they can earn enough to support themselves and their families.

“A guidance document by the UK NSWP (2008a) on the UK’s migrant sex work population estimates that around 37 per cent of UK commercial sex workers are migrants with as many as 52 per cent of migrants coming from Eastern Europe.

in a study by Bindel et al. (2012) where 72 per cent of the sex workers interviewed reported experiences of physical, sexual and verbal violence during childhood, past experiences of abuse were said to compound feelings of worthlessness.

In Jeal and Salisbury’s (2004) study, they found one-third of interviewees had left education at the age of 14 years or younger. Similarly, Bindel et al. (2012) found 39 per cent of respondents had no training or formal qualifications.”

Taken from a review of literature on prostitution, not one isolated study into one group of internet based prostitutes:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/303927/A_Review_of_the_Literature_on_sex_workers_and_social_exclusion.pdf

@Elsiebear90 there you go again I am sure there are tiny minority…but I would imagine the vast majority …

What makes you sure…or imagine..you have no evidence besides your assumption?

What is your basis of saying it is a tiny minority? While it is not possible to get a truly representative sample of prostitutes there is a lot of evidence that a great many actually enjoy their work. So see for instance here where many internet based prostitutes (now the majority) express satisfaction with their work as do the majority of the nearly 200 current and ex- prostitutes who have contributed to various threads on Mumsnet. No doubt you would claim these women are a tiny minority and unrepresentative-but how do you know? here

Of course there are prostitutes who have or had a horrible time but really being sure or imagining are simply not good enough. You imply do not have the evidence to back up your assertions.

@exponential I was not talking about women forced into prostitution, I was talking about the women prostituting themselves for whatever reason, who are having sex with people they don’t want to have sex with and doing things sexually they don’t want to do for money. No matter what someone’s motivations for sex work, making yourself do things sexually you don’t want to do and wouldn’t do unless you were paid cannot be good for someone’s mental health and is not comparable to doing the washing up or ironing as another poster said.

I am sure there are tiny minority of women who genuinely enjoy having sex with anyone who pays them, but I would imagine the vast majority of women prostituting themselves are forcing themselves to do things sexually they don’t want to do so they can get paid, which is not comparable to doing ironing, for the reasons listed in my previous post.

@h3av3n Also a huge number of them ARE trafficked or being exploited by a pimp, this is just reality!
@CSIblonde All the research & stats show that the majority of sex workers are mostly doing it because they have an addiction or are trafficked. That's not OK
@Elsiebear90 which is the reality of the vast majority of prostitution.
Usual generalizations without any evidence to back them up.

Firstly while there are women trafficked into prostitution in the UK it is rare. Determined efforts by the police to find it have largely failed. And there is very little evidence that many are pimped.
here

All the research & stats show the majority of sex workers…. are mostly doing it because they have an addiction or are trafficked
Where are these stats? While it is true that many street workers (who are roughly 10% of the prostitute total) are addicted those working indoors are not.

Anyone who claims the vast majority is making it up. It is impossible to get a truly representative sampling of prostitutes so you cannot make that claim. You are simply making it up.

@jennywhitehorses you’re comparing apples and oranges, plenty of people are coerced and pressured into doing some cleaning, it’s simply not comparable to coercing or forcing someone to have sex with you.

No one suffers harm by being pressured to do the washing up or ironing when they don’t want to, but plenty of people suffer psychological harm by being pressured and coerced into having sex. You’re not taking into account the emotions attached to and psychological harm inflicted on people who have sex with people they don’t want to have sex with and do things sexually they don’t want to do, which is the reality of the vast majority of prostitution. Very very few people can truly and healthily separate sex from emotions, so to call it a service compatible to ironing is absurd imo.