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To be disappointed in hearing that many UK woman drink during pregnancy [shock]

1003 replies

Leati · 18/07/2007 08:16

Yesterday, I was on a thread when some of the women started questioning about US policy on drinking alcohol during pregnancies. One of the women had heard that if you have a glass of wine, you could be arrested. I assured her that wasn't true but there was chance that if you were visibly pregnant that the restaurant or bar might exercise their right to refuse service. And if a pediatrician became suspicious of drug or alcohol abuse, they could have the baby?s blood tested at birth. If the baby is found to have these in their blood, the child will be taken away. Another woman pitched that she found it disturbing that restaurants had signs warning pregnant women.

I couldn't believe what I was hearing. These women seemed to believe it was actually okay to drink during their pregnancies. Hadn't they heard of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. So today, I did a little research and was shocked to learn that it is a big problem in the UK and that there is little education about it there.

Women who are angry over mothers choosing the bottle over nursing are damaging their children by drinking alcohol. This is not minor damage, in some case it is equivalent to severe mental retardation and in others it less obvious cognitive problems. Overall nearly 10% of babies born in the UK are suffering from some sort of cognitive problems directly related to alcohol exposure in the womb.

What broke my heart the most is that I have been on this site and I know that the mothers on this site care so much for their children. That while I may not always agree with everything said and our perspectives are not always the same, that we share a common love for our children. So I felt compelled to start this thread and share the information. I hope that you will share it, with your loved ones and it may spread.

I have attached some sites so you can research this yourself. These sites are both from the UK and the US.

www.fasaware.co.uk/

www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/west/series2/fetal_alcohol_syndro mfaspregnancydrinkinglearning_difficulties.shtml

www.healthychildrenproject.org/glossa ry/

OP posts:
Leati · 18/07/2007 08:48

I quoted this from thier website

Home > Information for patients > Information for patients > Alcohol and Pregnancy

Alcohol and Pregnancy - information for you

Published November 2006 by the RCOG.

We welcome feedback from members of the public or from health professionals on our patient information. Please email any comments to: Lucy Arnold.

This information is also available as a pdf:

Alcohol and Pregnancy - pdf file (301 kb)
You may be interested to read the RCOG statement Alcohol consumption and the outcomes of pregnancy.

----------------

Contents
Key points
About this information
How does alcohol affect pregnancy?
How is alcohol measured?
How much is safe to drink during pregnancy?
What is binge drinking?
What happens if I drink too much before I?m pregnant?
What happens if I?m drinking too much during pregnancy?
What is fetal alcohol syndrome?
Support for you
Is there anything else I should know?
Sources and acknowledgements
Useful additional information
Key Points
Fetal alcohol syndrome is the name given to a combination of features diagnosed in the baby after birth. It is caused by a woman drinking heavily throughout pregnancy.
Alcohol can have other effects on the baby which are known as fetal alcohol spectrum disorder (FASD).
When a woman drinks during pregnancy, the alcohol passes from her blood stream through the placenta and into the baby?s blood stream.
The safest approach in pregnancy is to choose not to drink at all.
Small amounts of alcohol during pregnancy (not more than one to two units, not more than once or twice a week) have not been shown to be harmful.
Alcohol is measured in units. One unit of alcohol is the equivalent of a half a pint of lager or beer, a glass of wine or a single shot of a spirit (gin, vodka, rum). 1 Alcohol and pregnancy: information for you Published November 2006 by the RCOG Due to be reviewed in 2008
When an individual drinks five or more units of alcohol on one occasion, this is known as binge drinking.
Regular binge drinking, around conception and in early pregnancy, is particularly harmful to a woman and her baby.
Heavy drinking is often related to unprotected sexual intercourse, which may result in an unplanned pregnancy and sexually transmitted infection.
It is important that you share information with your healthcare professional(s) about your drinking. Depending on your situation, your healthcare professional will then be able to offer you appropriate information and support.
Information about treatment and support is available from your:
practice nurse or GP at your general practice
midwife or obstetrician at your hospital.
About this information
This information is for you if you are pregnant or you are planning on becoming pregnant.

This information outlines the effects of drinking alcohol during pregnancy and provides advice about what is probably a safe amount to drink before and during your pregnancy. It also tells you about:

a safe limit when you are not pregnant
a safe limit when you are pregnant (both before and after the pregnancy is confirmed)
available information and support if you are drinking above a safe limit
the effect of drinking above a safe limit on the baby?s development in the womb
the effect of drinking above a safe limit while breastfeeding.
This information will help you to make informed choices about your own drinking. It aims to help you and your healthcare team make the best decisions about your care.

This information does not tell you in detail about:

fetal alcohol ayndrome
fetal alcohol spectrum disorder.
Some of the recommendations here may not apply to you. This could be because of some other illness you have, your general health, your wishes, or some or all of these things. If you think the treatment or care you get does not match what we describe here, then you should discuss this with your doctor, midwife, or another member of your healthcare team.

return to top

How does alcohol affect pregnancy?
When a woman drinks alcohol during pregnancy, the alcohol passes from her blood stream through the placenta and into the baby?s blood stream. When a woman is drinking regularly during this time, the alcohol can disrupt the baby?s normal development in the womb.

Drinking alcohol during pregnancy can affect:

the way the baby develops in the womb
the baby?s health at birth
the baby?s susceptibility to illness in infancy, childhood, adolescence and adult life
the child?s ability to learn (learning difficulties).
The effects of drinking alcohol are most harmful for the baby when a woman drinks just before and during pregnancy. When a woman cuts down or stops drinking at any point during pregnancy, it can make a difference to the baby. However, in some instances, once the damage has been done, this cannot be reversed.

If you are a heavy drinker and then stop drinking immediately, you could experience side effects such as withdrawal, delirium and other difficulties. So if you want to stop drinking, you should discuss this first with your healthcare professional, who will be able to help you to manage any side effects.

How is alcohol measured?
In the UK, alcohol is measured in units. One unit of alcohol is defined as 10 ml (millilitres) by volume (ABV) or 7.9 grams by weight of pure ethanol.

All alcohol sold in the UK above 1.2% ABV should indicate how strong it is in percentages (%). For example, a bottle of wine is about 12% strength. A bottle of whisky is about 40% strength. The higher the percentage, the more alcohol a drink has in it. A glass of whisky, therefore, is stronger than a glass of wine.

The table below is a rough guide to the units of alcohol in standard measures of different drinks. This is an approximation and may vary depending on the brand of your drink and the size of the measure.Drinks poured at home tend to be larger measures than those provided in pubs and restaurants.

For women who are not pregnant, the UK Government?s maximum recommended number of units is 14 units per week.

Light drinking is defined as under 2 units a day.
Heavy drinking is defined as over 6 units a day.
Beer, Cider & Alcopops

Strength
ABV Half
Pint
(units) Pint
(units) Bottle/
Can (units)
Bottle
1 Litre
(units)
330ml
500ml
Ordinary strength beer, lager or cider e.g. Draught beer, Heineken, Woodpecker
3-4% 1 2 1.5 1.9 -
'Export' strength beer, lager or cider e.g.
Stella, Budweiser, Kronenbourg, Strongbow 5% 1.25 2.5 2 2.5 -
Extra strong beer, lager or cider e.g.
Special Brew, Diamond White, Tennants Extra
8-9% 2.5 4.5 3 4.5 9
Alcopops, e.g.
Bacardi Breezer, Smirnoff Ice, Reef, Archers, Hooch 5% - - 1.7 - -

Wines & Spirits

Strength
ABV Small glass/
pub measure (units) Wine glass*
(units) Bottle
750 ml (units)
Table Wine 10-12% - 1.5 9
Fortified wine
(sherry, martini, port) 15-20% 0.8 2-3 14
Spirits
(whisky, vodka, gin) 40% 1 - 30

  • some measures of wine are more than this.

Source: Reproduced from the Royal College of Psychiatrists leaflet: Alcohol and Depression, Help is as Hand.

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How much is safe to drink during pregnancy?
Information about this is often unclear and conflicting. This can be confusing. There are only a few studies in this area and not everyone agrees with what these studies show.

Based on the best evidence to date, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists recommends that the only way to be absolutely certain that your baby is not harmed by alcohol is not to drink at all during pregnancy or while you are trying for a baby.

OP posts:
Leati · 18/07/2007 08:47

So because one orginization, The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, says its okay it must be right. The fact that the best research hospitals and top peditrician in the world say it is not doesn't matter?

OP posts:
ggglimpopo · 18/07/2007 08:47

In France you see heavily pregnant women smoking. It really riles me. But it is their business not mine and there is nothing I can do about it. Like drinking, the information is all there - on every packet of cigs and on all the alcohol publicity here. You are preaching to the converted.

If someone is going to smoke and drink they are going to do so, moderately or not. Getting upset about it on mumsnet will change nothing - especially as the forum is full of us converts who do not drink in excess or smoke during pg and those who do will not listen to a cyber stranger banging on about it when they do not listen to their doctor/midwife/public health info.

ladylush · 18/07/2007 08:46

Agree with alicet.

mrsmalaprop · 18/07/2007 08:46

Yep - unbelievable isn't it! But I was there and she looked like she had put on a few pounds, but no more than that. Apparently the baby was so far back into her pelvis that you couldn't really see it.

Her periods didn't stop until she was 7 months and she had been to the doctor saying she felt awful and had been told she had IBS. After that, she put all other symptoms down to that. Amazing isn't it!

VeniVidiVickiQV · 18/07/2007 08:46

To be fair, there is no real evidence to say that one or two units a week doesnt affect either.

I also wonder whether some folk really do have a good notion of what constitutes one unit of alcohol, or, just how much they really do consume in a week.

More information is definitely required.

ejt1764 · 18/07/2007 08:45

Leati there is a big difference between 1 or 2 units once a twice a week (RCOG) - and your one glass once a day ...

And where is the statistical evidence? Note, statistical, not anecdotal!

alicet · 18/07/2007 08:45

Katy44 what do you mean how did I do that? Sorry not sure what you are referring to...

alicet · 18/07/2007 08:45

here here ejt

fishie · 18/07/2007 08:44

leati you haven't answered fio's question.

or do you assume that if a woman has consumed one unit of alchol during her pregnancy then her child automatically has fas?

eleusis · 18/07/2007 08:44

She had an 8 pound baby and didn't know she was pregnant?!?!?!?!

alicet · 18/07/2007 08:44

OK Leati.

None of that so called evidence provides and evidence that a couple of drinks is harmful. What you are quoting are the conclusions of the authors without any detail on how they met their conclusions. This is relevant.

I'm sure there is just as much information on Google about what is safe. You can find anything you want on the internet after all.

I will accept the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists anyday.

Ladymuck · 18/07/2007 08:43

Sorry what I find truely shocking is the percentage of women who smoke during pregnancy. Something over a third if IRCC.

Mindles · 18/07/2007 08:42

Fio that's what I wanted to say.

It's anecdotal evidence I know so barely counts, but myself and one of my best friends got absolutely hammered in the beginning stages of our pregnancies because we hadn't realised we were pregnant - shock horror I even smoked cannabis before finding out - and surprise surprise both our babies are absolutely fine.

Leati · 18/07/2007 08:42

Have you ever met a child with fetal alcohol syndrome (or on the spectrum) that has been born to a non alcoholic mother?

Yes. Mothers think it is okay to drink. A glass of wine a night to settle their nerves. 7 glasses of wine in any seven day period of your pregnancy is enough to cause severe mental retardation. Lesser amounts are known to cause other cognitive problems.

There several articles that discuss the lack of education amongst midwifes in the UK. Seriously, I am begging you to research it.

OP posts:
ejt1764 · 18/07/2007 08:41

So am I, pixie (pg that is) ... but as fishie says:

"The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists says there is no evidence that a couple of units once or twice a week will do any harm to the baby"

I think we will just have to agree to differ on this one ... personally I have a much greater problem with pg women smoking - but I would never lecture them about it, as I treat women as intelligent beings who can make decisions for themselves.

eleusis · 18/07/2007 08:40

I'm sure you meant well by posting this information. But, it does come across as one step over the nanny state line.

America also has prolems with FAS. And, if I can remember all the way back to my child deveopment psych class at Uni correctly, FAS is caused by a pregnant woman who consumes something like 8 or nine drinks a day. And most of the damage is done in the first trimester (as with most things).

I, personally, don't drink a drop in the first trimest and after that follow the occassional but never more than 2 units at once rule.

Can they really test a baby's blood and take them away after birth?

mrsmalaprop · 18/07/2007 08:40

I'm so sceptical of statistics like that. How do they know these problems are 'directly related to alcohol'? There are so many variable factors in any pregnancy that it is impossible to pinpoint the direct cause of anything without any doubts.

My son is deaf. I had the occasional drink while pregnant (small glass of wine - maybe once a month), but I also had surgery at 6 months under a general anaesthetic and a whole load of other medication (administered by doctors). How am I to say what individual thing caused his deafness - or is it genetic?

I agree that women in the past have drank all through pregnancy and most people are not suffering as a result. My friend was one of those poor people who had a sudden and unexpected birth having never known she was pregnant. She was a student and had been off her face many, many times while pg and the baby was a perfectly healthy 8lb-er. She was extremely lucky, but it can't be so horrendously dangerous if that's possible - can it?

FioFioJane · 18/07/2007 08:40

I dont need to

answer my question

Leati · 18/07/2007 08:39

Read the articles.

OP posts:
FioFioJane · 18/07/2007 08:39

I will ask you ONE question Leati.

Have you ever met a child with fetal alcohol syndrome (or on the spectrum) that has been born to a non alcoholic mother?

Leati · 18/07/2007 08:37

I'll tell you what, you google in
How much Alcohol is Safe to Drink during your pregnancy?

Animal research shows that on the cellular level, as little as one dose of alcohol can reduce brain cell adhesion and cause neurological deficits. Human research has been limited, for ethical/legal reasons, and studies conducted on children exposed prenatally to low levels of alcohol have been contradictory. The following are statements from credible sources that unequivocally warn that the only safe level of alcohol during pregnancy is ZERO.
----------------
National Organization on Fetal Alcohol Syndrome:
"No safe time. No safe amount. No safe alcohol. Period."

[NOFAS Cover Page]

----------------
National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism:
"While it is apparent that children who meet the criteria for FAS are born only to those mothers who consume large amounts of alcohol during pregnancy, studies have reported neurobehavioral deficits and intrauterine growth retardation in infants born to mothers who reported themselves to be moderate alcohol consumers during pregnancy."

"Clinicians, however, must offer advice to their patients based upon the best available scientific evidence. Although some clinicians believe that recommending total abstention for pregnant women may subject them to unwarranted guilt about drinking small amounts of alcohol, most accept the need for clinical caution. Because we do not know at what point alcohol damage begins, it is prudent to recommend that pregnant women abstain from alcohol."

[NIAAA US Dept of Health & Human Services, Alcohol Alert No.13, July 1991]

----------------
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention:
"Public health concern over the use of alcohol during pregnancy was first signaled in 1981 by the release of a public health advisory from the Office of the Surgeon General warning women who were pregnant or planning to become pregnant to abstain from alcohol use because of the potential risks to the fetus. Since that time the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services issued additional advisories in 1990 and 1995 reiterating that women who are pregnant or planning to become pregnant should not drink alcohol."

[National Center on Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities: FAS Prevention Activities ]

----------------
March of Dimes:
"Research shows that even small amounts of alcohol can increase the risks of birth defects. So the safest choice is not to drink at all during your pregnancy."

"In fact, it's best to stop drinking before you try to become pregnant. Three weeks after you conceive, your baby's important organs are already forming. But you may not even know you're pregnant yet. During that time, alcohol could affect your baby's developing brain and body. So if you are thinking about getting pregnant, you should stop drinking before trying to conceive."

[March of Dimes, Alcohol and Pregnancy: Make the Right Choice]

----------------
More from the March of Dimes:
"No level of alcohol use during pregnancy has been proven safe. The March of Dimes recommends that a pregnant woman does not drink any alcohol - including beer, wine, wine coolers and hard liquor - throughout her pregnancy and while nursing.

"Drinking while pregnant can cause fetal alcohol syndrome, a lifelong condition that can include mental retardation, facial abnormalities, stunted growth, and learning disorders. It can also increase the risk of miscarriage, low birthweight, stillbirth and death in early infancy. When a pregnant woman drinks, alcohol passes swiftly through the placenta to her fetus. In the unborn baby?s immature body, alcohol is broken down much more slowly than in an adult?s body. As a result, the alcohol level of the fetus?s blood can be even higher and can remain elevated longer than that of the mother?s blood."

March of Dimes: Drinking During Pregnancy

----------------
United States Institute of Medicine (1996):
"Universal prevention intervention strives to ensure that all members of society understand that drinking alcohol can have hazardous consequences, particularly during pregnancy. The universal prevention message for FAS is a conservative one that encourages abstinence prior to conception and throughout pregnancy as the safest alternative."

[Fetal Alcohol Syndrome: Diagnosis, Epidemiology, Prevention, and Treatment]

----------------
Mayo Clinic:
"When you drink alcohol, it enters your bloodstream and can reach your developing fetus by crossing the placenta. Because a fetus metabolizes alcohol more slowly than an adult does, your developing baby's blood alcohol concentrations are higher than those in your body. The presence of alcohol can impair optimal nutrition for your baby's developing tissues and organs and can damage brain cells."

"Consider giving up alcohol during your childbearing years if you're sexually active and you're having unprotected sex. Nearly half of all pregnancies are unplanned."

[MayoClinic.com: Fetal Alcohol Syndrome]

----------------
Queens University in Belfast (1999):
"The behavioural effects observed indicate maternal alcohol consumption has influenced, possibly permanently, the functioning of the brain and CNS of the fetus and infant. These effects are observed at low levels of maternal alcohol consumption (5-6 units per week) and this raises questions regarding the 'safe' level of alcohol during pregnancy."

[Hepper, P.G. Report on Prenatal Exposure to Alcohol, 1999]

----------------
Wayne State University Research:
"Sixteen percent of the children born in the United States are exposed prenatally to alcohol, making alcohol the most common neurobehavioral teratogen. Whereas the earliest reports of neurobehavioral toxicity related to drinking during pregnancy were described among children of alcoholic mothers, more recent research suggested deleterious outcomes for children who are exposed prenatally to moderate amounts of alcohol. Jacobson and Jacobson, in their review of prenatal alcohol exposure and neurobehavioral development, suggested that even the smallest dose may adversely affect the fetus."

"Maternal alcohol consumption even at low levels was adversely related to child behavior; a dose-response relationship was also identified. The effect was observed at average levels of exposure of as low as 1 drink per week. Although effects on mean scores for Externalizing and Aggressive behaviors were observed at low levels of prenatal alcohol exposure, effects on Delinquent behavior and Total Problem Scores were observed at moderate/heavy levels of exposure. Children with any prenatal alcohol exposure were 3.2 times as likely to have Delinquent behavior scores in the clinical range compared with nonexposed children. The relationship between prenatal alcohol exposure and adverse childhood behavior outcome persisted after controlling for other factors associated with adverse behavioral outcomes. Clinicians are often asked by pregnant women if small amounts of alcohol intake are acceptable during pregnancy. These data suggest that no alcohol during pregnancy remains the best medical advice."

[Pediatrics Vol. 108 No. 2 August 2001, p. e34]

----------------
Center for Science in the Public Interest:
"A recent survey illustrated the need for physician education on "how much" alcohol consumption is "too much" during pregnancy. 41% of physicians placed the threshold for FAS at one to three drinks per day while 38% placed the threshold at one or fewer drinks per day.17 Both opinions directly contradict the Surgeon General's advice that women not consume any alcoholic beverages during pregnancy because of the risk of birth defects."

[CPSI Booze News Fact Sheet: Fetal Alcohol Syndrome]

----------------
Vanderbilt University School of Medicine:
"Laboratory studies suggest that a single drinking binge by a pregnant woman can damage for life the brain of her unborn child."

"Drinking in late pregnancy is really unsafe for the brain... One glass of wine at dinner is unlikely to cause the damage, but we cannot say that any added intake would be safe... The most prudent policy would be to have no alcohol during pregnancy."

[Science News, Vol. 158, No. 2, July 8, 2000, p. 28]

----------------
American Academy of Pediatrics (1993):
"Fetal alcohol syndrome is one of the most common identifiable causes of mental retardation, with a worldwide incidence estimated to be 1.9 per 1000 livebirths. However, when children with less severe manifestations of the syndrome (FAE) are included, the estimated incidence may be as great as 1 in 300 livebirths. Evidence indicates, however, that physicians may not consistently inquire about alcohol use during pregnancy or recognize the full spectrum of the effects of prenatal exposure."

"There is no established 'safe dose' of alcohol for pregnant women."

"The consumption of at least one to two drinks a day was associated with a substantially increased risk of giving birth to a growth-retarded baby."

"While there is remaining controversy about the association between maternal consumption of smaller amounts of alcohol and possible damage to the fetus, current data do not support the concept that any amount of alcohol is safe for all pregnant women."

"Since there is no known safe amount of alcohol consumption during pregnancy, the Academy recommends abstinence from alcohol for women who are pregnant or who are planning a pregnancy."

[Schydlower M et al, Committee on Substance Abuse and Committee on Children With Disabilities, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and Fetal Alcohol Effects. Pediatrics, Vol 91, No.5 May 1993, pp.1004-1006]

----------------
American Academy of Pediatrics (1998):
"FAS is the leading cause of mental retardation in newborns."

"There is no safe level of alcohol consumption during pregnancy."

"Even one drink risks the health of an unborn baby."

"Pregnant? Don't Drink. Period."

[American Academy of Pediatrics, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome: 10 Things You Need to Know

----------------
American Academy of Pediatrics (2000):
"Because there is no known safe amount of alcohol consumption during pregnancy, the Academy recommends abstinence from alcohol for women who are pregnant or who are planning a pregnancy."

"The Academy supports federal legislation that would require the inclusion of health and safety messages in all print and broadcast alcohol advertisements based on the US Surgeon General's warning: 'Drinking during pregnancy may cause mental retardation and other birth defects. Avoid alcohol during pregnancy.'"

OP posts:
FioFioJane · 18/07/2007 08:37

when i had my last two children the midwife advised it was ok to drink EVERY day, as long as it was sensible and within healthy limits.

8 years on, uits drink nothing but midwives are still telling women they can drink as long as its sensibly. As they have done for years.

Its a personal choice and many women go off alcohol anyway. I personally have had a glass of wine or two and not felt guilty.

I have a daughter with undiagnosed special needs (severe) and never touched a drop whilst pregnant with her. In a way I do think this 'research' (ie. none) is a bit silly and this is getting like groundhog day

Katy44 · 18/07/2007 08:37

alicet how did you do that?

ladylush · 18/07/2007 08:36

This has been dredged up on mnet before and the anti-alcohol brigade keep citing research which does not at any stage show that one or two units once or twice a week are hazardous.

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