to feel uneasy about my son reading Enid Blyton books

Why would we have problems with children reading about class differences when real life is full of class differences too? Also children understand the issues in books very well. As I said below my sister and I read the EB books aloud sometimes making the girls boys and the boys girls as the sexism was so clear to us both at 10 or however old we were. We don't ban children reading Shakespeare - Merchant of Venice etc. Although the Muslims got their knickers in a twist recently about that opera I suppose where every religious head if chopped off on equal terms Mohammed, Jesus etc.

Hi Melbourne - I think that does make you ignorant! I don't mean that in a nasty sense - just that ignorant literally means unaware of, I think, although frequently it is used to mean crass/stupid.

I think you and Huw have proved my point, haven't you? It's the adults who enjoy EB because they get a chance to relive their childhood. Is there not the smallest chance that your dcs would have loved any story you had read to them?

"Re: class issues. I note you recommended Swallows and Amazons earlier. I remember reading this years ago and it being pretty class riddled itself. Let's not even go there... "

Time to defend Ransome here, I think.
You can only describe Ransome as 'class-riddled' in the sense that the main characters in most of the books are middle class. However, if you look more carefully you will see Ransome (who ended up married to Trotsky's former secretary, as it happens) was way ahead of his time in portrayal of working class characters - Jacky in 'The Picts and The Martyrs', the Death & Glories in the Norfolk books, countless older characters who are treated as rounded complex individuals and accorded respect by both the author and other characters.
It's only by taking the knee-jerk 'they are rich therefore the book is class-riddled' approach that Ransome can be criticised on that score, I think.

(He does use the 'n-word' twice though. Though not, I would firmly state, in a racist way.)

Banning EB ? LOLOLOL!!!!

I think the post by Oenophile on Sat 23-Jun-07 09:41:32 is absolutely spot on.

Read Faraway tree to my DDs a year or so ago and I used to watch them in bed, their eyes clearly seeing the strange lands and so on.

It was magical - for them and for me.

hello

have not read all the thread so forgive me if I'm repeating what someone else has said but my 4 yr old ds and I LOVE EB books, we have just finished the Wishing Chair Again and have read all of the Faraway Tree books, he just adores them and can't wait for the next chapter. I must be a bit pc unaware because it did not occur to me that Chinky was a racist name as I read the stories, I've actually never heard it used as such.... I don't think that makes me ignorant, I am just clearly not familiar with every word in our language that is potentially offensive.
For me, I don't feel my son is being damaged or mislead or given skewed values by reading EB books, I feel there is a lot of good in them that outweighs any potential evils. The sheer joy of reading with him and his excitement about the adventures and the fact that our garden is now 'the enchanted forest' filled with unlimited potential for discovery are all the answers I need on this one. Just my opinion of course and I do respect everyone else's differing ones.

Yes I'm glad you brought it up too Frances5. Like Mrs Merton, I do so love a Heated Debate. I think I bear more than my fair share of responsibility for warming the debate up, and I hope no-one has felt offended.

There's just so many issues - racism, classism, censorship, literary merit, adult sentimentality, fostering and engaging younger readers blah blah

Go go Quattrocento! EB's books are absolute trash, appallingly badly written, and redolent of the worst attitudes of her time. My parents banned them so of course I read a few at other people's houses when I was nine or ten, and found them utterly dreary and repellent. They will be banned in my house too and if DS chooses to read them on the sly I have every confidence he will be revolted by them too.

Frances5--I'm glad you brought this discussion up. Even though your son is only 5 I still think its a good idea to educate him. I don't think we give our children enough credit to understand the nuances of our society. Just the other day my 3 yo told me she was not going to stay at home like ME and she was going to work like her father. I asked her why and she said bc daddy is doing "work", and "earning a living." Does she understand all the implications of what that means? Probably not, but she has picked up on the subtle balance of power, and as much as we try in our household to say taking care of the home and children is valued, she still picks up on our subtle prejudices about it!

And I mean to add if you do not UNDERSTAND why chinky is offensive, than you are simply being ignorant.

Can I just say that as a Chinese person, I DO find the term chinky offensive, whether it is meant with malice or not. My MIL and SIL often use this term, and they always say it does NOT mean anything, or that they don't mean it in a bad way. Of course it means something. If you view the history of how this term was used to a Chinese person it has always been a put down--whether it was laced with malice, or tossed off as a patronising remark. Please teach you children why it is offensive. I am not for banning books, but would like people to understand that as one Chinese person, I would prefer the term chinky NOT to be used. And yes, I came up with that idea on my own, and did not need a non-Chinese person to tell me that! I wonder how many of you would be saying this is PC-ism gone mad if we were talking about the word "ner". Or, viewed from another way, how many times in this forum do we see women complaining that their dh's swear at them. Why is unacceptable for a dh to call his wife a cnt for instance? Would it be acceptable if that dh simply said, oh didn't mean anything by it? As I said before, fine EB was writing in a time this sort of talk was "acceptable", but surely we've moved on for good reason???

The Oxford Reading Tree is a reading scheme. Not novels to be read for pleasure, and absolutely not an alternative to Enid Blyton or any other children's author.

I grew up reading Enid Blyton etc, and it never had any affect on my views of society..

The books were written in a time where it was acceptable to use language like that. It is a piece of history, and could provide a wonderful opportunity for you to explain some of that history, and the subsequent developments that habe shaped our society in to the (ridiculously over-the-top) politically correct place it now is.

Children nowadays are going to grow up knowing not to say things like 'chinky' (and about a thousand other phrases that are now not acceptable) but most will not know the reasons why. Many people who have posted on this thread, I can assume from their answers, will not explain the reason to their children, just teach them it is wrong, or worse still, try to shelter them from it.

These words, whilst not accepted in general society, do exist, and are still used frequently. They wont be heard on television, or read in papers. They will be said in the streets, in schools etc.

Trying to 'protect' kids from hearing these things, is denying them the correct education to realise why it is wrong.

We should allow our children to shape their own morals through our education, not be told them.

there's lots of racism in Othello from the baddies. Is that not the point? The noble savage - baser emotions - well greed (Macbeth) and vanity (Lear) are baser emotions too. Let's really do a different thread and we can talk about Shakespeare, and Rousseau too, if you like, now that he has emerged.

most of the better children's writers don't deal with class especially well. That was a pretty weak spot in my argument. I mean they don't all do patronisingly awful, a la EB, but working class children tend to be either oiks or absent altogether, don't they?

There is some pretty ghastly stuff in EB on race, actually, and it is not being oversensitive to say so. That's why she's being effectively censored. There's a debate to be had around that as well.

Night all xx

Mollyhawk - Yes the Land of Far Beyond. That was it. Loved that book.

Just off to bed but a few "final" thoughts...

QC I was not actually suggesting the illustrator was necessarily racist. In fact, what I meant was that if the term chinky was in wide use at the time as a slang term for a chinese person - which I don't know as is way before my time that he may have misinterpreted the name chinky and so made the elf look chinese. I think however it is more likely that he simply depicted the elf with slanty eyes to make him look elf like. After all why on earth would you make an elf look chinese? It makes no sense IMO.

Re: the white doll and black doll. I don't know the context but I can't see why a black doll wishing to be white would be inherently racist. Why would this be different to a brunette doll wanting to be blonde or to the little mermaid wanting to become human? It is simply a change from one thing to another. Don't see why we should assume a racist context unless there is more to the story than this in which case feel free to correct me.

Re: Gollywogs. Again, there is actually nothing inherently racist about a Gollywog IMO. Why is this any different to a white rag doll? We are not talking about calling someone a Gollywog. In fact, my dad had a much loved Gollywog when young and he tells me that he never connected this with a black person any more than he connected his teddy bear with a real bear. I doubt EB had any intention of this being racist or that anyone at the time would have read it as being so.

It is possible to be over sensitive you know.

Re: class issues. I note you recommended Swallows and Amazons earlier. I remember reading this years ago and it being pretty class riddled itself. Let's not even go there...

Re: Othello - no I was not going to go that route. In fact if you read the play there is lots of racism in it from various characters. In addition, the depiction of Othello as a noble savage who ultimately is ruled by his baser instincts (jealousy, murderous rage) takes its roots from the inherently racist perceptions of Othello as a black man and unable to control his more animal nature which were more common at the time in the same way as the key characteristics of Shylock were common in perceptions of jewish people at the time. There is a similar black stereotype in Titus Andronicus (can't remember the name of the character off hand).

BTW more than happy to discuss Shakespeare on a separate thread

Maybe, but I think I need sleep, so perhaps we could resume tomorrow?

ooh this IS fun. Erm different forms of stupidity?

Can't we do this instead of discussing EB who is deadly dull and pants anyway.

Stupidity implies lack of intelligence. Vanity and jealousy imply self-esteem isshoos of opposing nature.

Shakespeare and EB do not belong on the same thread. In fact they don't belong on the same planet. You are right, Vicious.

OK, will discuss but not at this time of night!

Am off to bed, good night.

Personally I wouldn't censor EB - but if ds were to question certain aspects, I'd then use it as the occasion to discuss why things have changed. I'd worry that if I made too much of an issue about it before ds raised it, in a sense I'd be making race differences too important an issue and potentially and unintentionally creating a tension in ds' mind that wouldn't otherwise have been there.

He is at a multi-cultural school where the recently retired head teacher developed a brilliant anti-racist policy (since rolled out across the education authoirty), which is essentially based on respecting everyone for who they are - not matter their colour, religion or ability.

He's not reading enough yet for me to be facing this yet myslef - but I have come across a "lower" level problem of a similar ilk, in that he has disccovered "Capatain Underpants" books, which he loves, but which dh is horrified to discover uses "wrong" grammar. I've told dh I don't care, as they are the first books that ds has tried to read for himself (I'll buy the ot! ) - and that while I acknowledge that the grammar mistakes are an issue, I can turn it around into a learning exercise (eg, why is that the wrong "there" - why should it be "their"?).

Well yes, jealousy hmm. Lear's is vanity. Don't both things amount to stupidity?

Discuss

Ooh not sure about Othello being inherently racist.

Don't know the play well enough.

Would like someone to start a new thread about it so that them as know more can discuss it and I can just read.

From what I remember though, it's not that he's stupid, it's that he is jealous. As is Wotsisname in the Winters Tale (Leontes? Laertes? Something else? Can't remember. Anyway, Perdita's Dad.)

Nightynight - re: ginger beer - have you tried the Idris stuff? (yummy)