To think the army shouldn't be allowed to 'avertise' in schools?

FioFio,

The Army sends out surveys on a random basis every couple of years to women / ethnic minorities / FC Soldiers and the like asking them, in confidence, if they have come across bullying / racism / sexism / harassment etc and since I have served (16 years) the responses (usually published 6 months or so later) have got better and better. Yes it WAS an issue in the Army, but as time goes on it lessens.

I worked on a building site many moons ago and was treated far, far worse there than I have ever been in the Army.

The punishments for any form of racism, bullying, harrassment et al are strictly enforced in the military - jail terms are possible - which I believe is far more stringent than in civvy street. We hear all the time of women being awarded tons of cash for sexual discimination etc but how often does the perpertrator serve a jail term???

Army cadets often share facilities with TA units, but yes I think that going forward there should be better integration.
You can see the nearest TA base from DCs school, yet the CCF has it's own building.

DC I think you are muddling up CCF and TA

I'm implacably opposed to compulsory membership of an armed force. DSs are well up for guns, as am I, but that's a choice, not an obligation. I
Apparently I was wrong that this chinless idiocy was gone.
Would explain why the CCF units I encountered were often so shit. Conscripts make inferior soldiers, even if the raw material is the same.

Look at the Americans in Vietnam, Russians in Afghanistan, the Argentines in the Falklands, and the various Arab/Israeli wars.
Apparently superior forces trashed because the actual fighting men were just cannon fodder to the political elite.

Thing is that more direct involvement is necessary if we are to maintain the level of forces we currently have.
Soldiers pay is really bad, and it's pretty clear that the phase where they are used beyond the generally popular "defend the homeland" is going to last the next few decades.

Also, the diversity of warfare is increasing. In the next 25 years, we can reasonably expect to be dealing with hi-tech enemies with smart missiles, urban warfare, and (if the climate models are to be believed) intervention in the affairs of huge numbers of forced migrants.

The range is so large, that we need more reserve forces, since it would be prohibitively expensive to keep all the specialities as full time soldiers. Medics and communications specialists have substantially gone this way already, it ought to grow.

But sadly the cadet forces and TA by their nature don't require multi-billion pound defence equipment contracts. Thus the government largely ignores them. I'd bet 50% of MPs don't even know there is an Air Training Corps.
Same with the way that post-traumatic mental illness doesn't get much help. BAe has no psychiatric services to sell, so the government doesn't buy.

Duchesse the (private) senior school I am looking at for my child has compulsory CCF in year 10 and after that they can stay in it by choice.

Dominic- I happen to know that the CCF or DofE are compulsory in my son's school. I know anedoctally of a kid who left by mutual agreement when he refused to be in any of the uniformed services (the school was doing St John's ambulance instead of DofE at the time). It is that kind of a school, and alas the only one around here- there are very few schools in Devon as it is, and fewer still for boys (this is a mixed school, a former boys' school, in a sea of girls' schools).

Other people have different opinions and some people support the military. I wouldn't force my opinions on the general populace and believe people should have the choice whether they serve or not. I have said it's not something that I would want my children to do (of course if they choose to do that, I hope they would take my feelings into consideration)

If we were invaded I would fight myself, although i imagine the choice of whether one joins up or not would be a little less of a 'choice'. I see that as distinct from 'peacekeeping'. I still think there are other ways to aid other countries rather than joining the forces.

Interesting point DominiConnor about teachers running CCFs. As is obvious from my previous post I am a member of the reserve forces (I guess that makes me a terrorist ) and I have helped out on CCF camps etc before. I have found that the teenagers often find it quite difficult to differentiate Mr Smith who's their chemistry teacher 5 days a week and Lieutenant Smith who's their CCF officer 1 afternoon a week. Equally Mr/Lt Smith finds it difficult to move from being jokey/matey teacher to Officer in Charge.

I do think there's therefore definitely a requirement for more regulars and/or reservist involvement in CCFs - alas with all the directions the ever diminishing forces are pulled in, I can't see that happening anytime soon.

persephonesnape, perhaps you could address the question Haarpsichordcarrier then?

Quote:

for those of you who oppose military service and would be heartbroken if your child signed up, can I just ask - do you think we shouldn't have an army at all? do you think it is unnecessary? do you think we should not be involved in any peacekeeping or other missions? and what if we were invaded or any of our territories?

I addressed that in my earlier comments.

?that?s not what I want for my children?. But what if that?s what your children want? One day they will grow up and be in a position to make choices for themselves, and it won?t just be your upbringing that influences their choices in life, and there will come a time when they won?t seak your approval for the choices they?ve made. So if those choices include wanting to serve their country then what?

My DH is in the army and has not long got back from Afghanistan, my brother is serving in Iraq and, as an inevitable consequence of living on an army base, most of our friends are in the forces.
I'm incredibly proud of what they do and, while I wouldn't necessarily want my son to join (too much time away/risk of getting shot!) I would support him if that's what he chose.
You should be grateful we have an army which defends the freedom of some of you idiots on here to write what you like, wherever you like.
And to go back to the point joining the army is not a choice like any other because without an army, we'd be in serious trouble. Lots of other countries still have National Service!

Xenia you're right there is a case for being neutral but what an almighty cop out that is.
if there was a world war again, then there comes a time when being "neutral" involves a level of appeasement with which it would be hard for me to be comfortable.
it certainly isn't our tradition to stand by in the face of threats and aggression or to appease aggressors
I certainly wouldn't want to be in the position the RoI were in during WWII.

persephone: "No one has mentioned bullying, sexism, racism or homophobia in the armed forces. Are we conveniently sweeping that under the carpet?"
better hope your children don't go into the City then

I think that people can do a lot worse than joing the Army! Its something to be proud of!
It teaches good disciplin and independance. When someone comes out of the army the walk away with excellent life skills.
Its a good, hard working, honest wage!

persephone: "No one has mentioned bullying, sexism, racism or homophobia in the armed forces. Are we conveniently sweeping that under the carpet?"

unfortunatly this happens everywhere doesnt it school, work, in the home you cant place that at the doors of our forces

I am saddened at some of the responses on here i do not agree with the war in Iraq for many different reasons but I am proud of the people that have gone on orders to do there best for us
I am proud of the peace keeping missions and the humanitarian aid they give, the specialities they bring to situtions where there is panic/disasters
I am proud of my family and others that lost there lives in ww1 & ww2 so we could live better lives
I wear my poppy with pride every year in memory of all the brave men and women who are in the armed forces and there families who are supporting them to be there

The cadet forces used to be run by people who had served, but as the number of these has declined to a small fraction of what it once was, "real" officers are very hard to find.

If you restrict yourself to the staff at a school, the% who have the inclination let alone the ability means you are going to struggle.

One thing I did pick up in my time was a bit of social friction with the CCF types and the squaddies.

CCF can give children great opportunities to do 'risky' stuff that schools might not be prepared to do with them e.g. camping, orienteering, etc. The RAF section at our local independent school go flying regularly at a local airbase.

My concern however is that the forces don't seem to have a lot of input to the cadet force itself. The units appear to be run by members of staff who have an interest and may not have a great deal of training or experience e.g. a week's basic army training and a weapons training course whereas I thought it would be run by 'real' soldiers/sailors, etc.

Duchesse, you have seen the badge one gets for passing the Duke of Edinburgh Award ?
It's two crossed swords, and when you add in that Prince Philip served bravely in WWII, killing people, I don't think you can get away from the military that easily.

Most sports have martial roots, football was basically a scrap with the ball as an excuse.

You don't need a cadet force to help your kid learn discipline, but that misses the point big time.
Each kid is different, and schools, even the good ones are mostly "one size fits all", with the occasional not to individuality.
Some kids just don't click with school discipline, or a given teacher, or there is some peer pressure.
Organised music may be right for that child instead, it depends.
What it is not is team sport. Or at least not 1/10th as often as it is used, but it can be an option. Cadet forces are simply increasing the set of choices.
I would be surprised if any school these days had the CCF as compulsory.

Of course it?s not ok for someone elses son to die ? however, they are not my responsibility. My children are my responsibility ? and are disciplined how I see fit. The discipline of choir or sports teams (hardly a comparison to being in the army, is it..) is the same sort of discipline one acquires from attending school on a daily basis, teamwork is learned by participating in lessons. The discipline that I am talking about is the ability to accept orders without question ? and that it not what I want for my children. I also (now) have a sneaking suspicion that people are talking about ?discipline? with regards to children that hang around streets terrorising old ladies and shooting cats with air rifles. Want them to join a choir? Oh! Much better idea, give them a gun!

No one has mentioned bullying, sexism, racism or homophobia in the armed forces. Are we conveniently sweeping that under the carpet?

I?d be a lot prouder of my child going to help out in areas of natural disaster as part of the peace corp than as part of HM armed forces. There are alternatives to community service that don?t involve being a member of the military.

I'm having enough moral dilemmas about my 13 year old being in the navy section of the CCF at school next year as it is. Ethically, I have to say I would have preferred he do Duke of Edinburgh instead, but I don't feel it is really my decision. This is something he has to choose for himself. I do not think that the forces should be able to advertise in schools, no, but my choice to send my son to a school where there are combined forces does I suppose force me to accept their presence in the school. I would be mightily peed off to hear that my local state school was getting visitations like that without the parents being warned.

yes, or singing in a choir
or playing in an orchestra
or going to work
obviously they all involve discipline

"my children do not need
the 'discipline' of cadets, they receive discipline from their parent as I deem appropriate."

I take it that you're therefore also opposed to your children doing sport? something which also contains an element of discipline, perhaps you are opposed to them being disciplined in school also? when one talks of discipline, it is not that they bring up your children, just that it is a disciplined environment. not the same.