DH didn’t stop when I said stop

OP, I hope you are doing ok.
I won’t join in the rape debate as have nothing to add that has not already been said.

The fact is you asked him to stop because it was hurting and he did not stop. That is horrible whatever word you use to describe it.

If my life partner did this to me, I would lose my respect and trust for him and would be very wary for the future.

@CollyWombles

I'm sorry you've been through all that. As a child you obviously had no idea what was happening. I remember at the age of about 10 watching the news and asking my F what the word 'rape' meant. He had been a defence barrister previously and he gave the legal definition, which went over my head. But I remember that he said it was sexual intercourse without the woman's consent. Clearly a child didn't count.

It didn't occur to me that that was what was happening to me, or that he was to blame for it all.

No wonder you didn't think there was any point in involving the police. I can say, though, that involving the police in a historical abuse investigation is one thing that really helped me. They were great. I understand that there wasn't enough evidence for the CPS to pursue it. The police traced the man who assaulted me us at knife point, and they were sure they had their man. The other abusers are dead, apart from my brother, who's seriously damaged and DSis and I both didn't feel right about him being charged. It was really empowering to report it, and the fact that they believed us meant a lot.

If the OP is able to report it then it can be very empowering, even if there's no conviction. But it has to be what she wants, not what she's badgered into.

@lurchermummy, you say:

"No I don't think YABU, but nor do I think it's rape, I think he was thoughtless and selfish, and probably underestimated how much it hurt. I do think you need to talk about it and let him know how upset you are. He could have pulled out, he could have masturbated to finish, or just stopped and asked how you you were, especially knowing you had just had surgery. No man is "unable" to stop, he just chose not to."

This is the very definition of rape. Talk about cognitive dissonance.

But it is so incredibly important that any other readers of this post know that regardless of the OP's feelings on the matter, what happened to her was rape. I fail to understand why some of these posters and unable to grasp that concept. There are no excuses or reasons that justify what this man did. There never is, where rape is concerned.

Having had a similar surgery myself, had you had the all clear to have intercourse 3 weeks post op? You could have been in dangering of undoing the surgery surely? I'm assuming you felt up to it iniatally and weren't badgered into it?

I agree with the sensible posters on this thread, no means no whether its at the beginning, middle or end of proceedings. He could easily have pulled out and finished himself off, the thought of you in pain and crying while he carried on and came is horrifying and he doesn't seem to get it at all.

So op's husband "forgot" that first gaining and then ensuring continued consent is paramount if you don't want to rape someone.

Ok

SingingTherapy. No-one is trying to convince the OP it is rape. Firstly because there is no 'convincing' about it, it is rape. Secondly posters are quite rightly challenging the posters that are saying this is not rape because, they are wrong. It has been said a good few times, this is a public forum, it is viewed by man people of all ages and used in the media, therefore it is extremely important to challenge rape apologists and call rape what it is, rape.

I have been raped three times in my life. The first time as a child. My parents excused it as 'kids being kids'. Because you know, kids rape other kids. It's not really rape, because it's kids huh?

Second time I was 18, at a house party and I was quite drunk so I went to bed. I woke up to find my skirt had been lifted up, knickers down and a party goer putting his penis inside me. I didn't tell him no, so it can't be rape. Instead I pretended to be asleep in the desperate hope he would leave me alone. I was too afraid to do anything and I had already learned that saying you have been raped gets you nowhere hadn't I? I had been drunk, I went to bed, I was wearing a skirt, I didn't try to stop him, I didn't say no. So it couldn't be rape huh?

Third time was two years ago, a boyfriend I was dating. We had a night out for a friend's birthday. Had a drunken row. I went to bed. In the morning I was surprised how much discharge I seemed to have. Later that evening my boyfriend told me he had sex with me whilst I was asleep. I was drunk and hadn't woken up. That wasn't rape either, because he was my boyfriend and I hadn't said no, because I was out for the count. I couldn't remember it, so that wasn't rape either was it?

Now, as said, the OP can choose to believe it wasn't rape if she wishes and I totally understand that. It took me many years to learn and accept the first two situations were rape. But it is so incredibly important that any other readers of this post know that regardless of the OP's feelings on the matter, what happened to her was rape. I fail to understand why some of these posters and unable to grasp that concept. There are no excuses or reasons that justify what this man did. There never is, where rape is concerned.

What would you do if that friend punched you on the nose, you say stop it hurts, friend continues for another 5 seconds whilst you are clearly in pain, just because they are enjoying themselves?

I'd feel confused about why someone who was supposed to care about me could behave so horribly, talk to them about it and decide whether I could carry on being their friend. If, in my perception, it was severe enough to warrant reporting them for assault then I would do so. If not then I would assume this was my right and that no one could call me a violence apologist.

Singingtherapy

That isn't complexity. It is just lying. It doesn't make it theft if the person did actually intend to give it back, which was the specified scenario here.

I think people are getting a bit confused about their mens rea. In theft, the intention has to be to dishonestly deprive the other person, permanently, of their property. In rape, the intention has to be to penetrate someone without their consent. The test is two-fold: a) did penetration occur? b) was there a reasonable belief that it was consensual. Etc. Simple stuff.

It doesn't matter if the analogy doesn't work. The point I was obviously making is that the victim's perception shouldn't be ignored. And the analogy does show the complexity. Anyone who's ever been charged with theft could say they intended to give it back but forgot.

What a weird analogy.

What would you do if that friend punched you on the nose, you say stop it hurts, friend continues for another 5 seconds whilst you are clearly in pain, just because they are enjoying themselves?

I guess you wouldn't say it was a relatively small incident and you should just forgive the otherwise lovely friend.

That analogy is rubbish.

Unless you consider access to women's bodies to be on a par with owning chattels

And back to pre 1991 we go.....

Singing, some posters were claiming it wasn't rape before op, in her second post, said she didn't feel like she'd been raped. So they weren't supporting her, they were putting their own views onto her.
Posters like me were clearly stating it was rape by legal definations.
After my experience I can't say I 'felt' raped. I was in shock and felt emotionally frozen. My first instinct was not to report it.
So I don't know how you're supposed to feel when you've been raped?
The lack of violence would, i guess, leave you very confused.

I had a similar situation to op in my younger years. Not a husband but someone I was dating. I knew it was rape back then but didn't report it because I knew I would get accused of "leading him on, red blooded male, point of no return etc". I even carried on dating him for a while in a misguided attempt to normalise the situation in my own head ! I tried to raise the concept with him and he just laughed in my face. This was a "nice young man" woth prospects etc

I believe similar sexual assaults have hsppened to many, many women. There was a very long thread on here a couple of years back. A lot of women got support from it and the rape apologists on this thread would have been chased away with their ignorant tails between their legs.

It's depressing how there are still women trying to tell others it's no big deal.

That analogy doesn't in any way equate to what happened to the OP. Her OH didn't intend to stop, then forgot or couldn't. He ignored her. Big difference.

The thing is the thread has branched off slightly so without trying to push OP into anything...which nobody should be doing regardless...the discussion about definitions is ongoing.

Only that isn't a theft

Suppose your best friend noticed you'd left a ten pound note at their house that had fallen out of your purse and deliberately picked it up and put it in their bag with the intention of giving it back to you. Suppose they then forgot and only mentioned it when they remembered weeks later. Would it feel like a horrible betrayal? Probably. Would it leave your friendship slightly tainted? Probably. Does it fit the legal definition of theft? Absolutely. Would you call the police and see her in court? ....

No, it doesn't. She intended to give it back. That isn't theft.

I haven't commented until now but I've read the whole thread. To me the OP's experience of the situation is paramount. She's said twice that she doesn't feel she was raped. Of course what she described fits the legal definition of rape, but she weighed up the situation in the light of her experience of him as a person and feels that was happened was horrible but not rape. And that alone makes it indefensible to try to pursuade her that it was. Furthermore there is nothing wrong with her feeling like this and people who support her are not rape apologists. Suppose your best friend noticed you'd left a ten pound note at their house that had fallen out of your purse and deliberately picked it up and put it in their bag with the intention of giving it back to you. Suppose they then forgot and only mentioned it when they remembered weeks later. Would it feel like a horrible betrayal? Probably. Would it leave your friendship slightly tainted? Probably. Does it fit the legal definition of theft? Absolutely. Would you call the police and see her in court? ....

The choice is always with the person involved. I never reported one of my rapes, even though i knew it was rape. But having people pooh pooh it & brush it aside would have done nothing for me long term in getting past it. By acknowledging this for what it is, it can give some strength & control back rather than just letting someone in OPs situation think they are over reacting

No I wouldnt advise to report either.

Neither would I advise to end the marriage or re build it. That is for op to work out for herself.

AnyFucker

Absolutely.

So many people getting it arse-backwards here: you wouldn't get a conviction so it can't have been a rape.

Nope. You may not get a conviction because some people like to dilute or obfuscate the definition of rape, and others don't understand it, plus there is always the requirement to present actual evidence. It is still a rape.

Totally agree with you, Lizzie

I am incensed with the rape apologists but would I advise op to go directly to the police despite knowing that the law is on her side ?

No. And that is because of the pervasive attitudes to rape within marriage amply demonstrated on this thread. Seems like nothing has really changed since 1991.

The OP has the right to report her DH obviously, but none of us should pressure her to do so either. She has the right to decide not to report it as well. The whole process is so harrowing, and the conviction rate so low that it's understandable that the OP won't want to do that. The best way to get help and support is through Rape Crisis, they can help the OP to decide what she wants to do.

What she shouldn't do is allow her DH to minimise what happened. I was very disturbed by his attitude of surprise that she was still upset by it. For me, that would spell the end of the relationship regardless of whether I reported it. Because I have 2 DDs and I wouldn't want to give them the idea that rape is ever in any way an acceptable part of a marriage. My DM's minimising has been so damaging to DSis and me.

Sadly in a lot of cases the rapist is known to the victim. I believe that rape is even more damaging when commited by someone that is supposed to love and care for you. That's why it is so important to validate to a victim that rape is rape, no matter the relationship between the perp and the victim. That they CAN go to the police if they decide to. That is okay to feel confused, deeply hurt and degraded. To minimise rape is incredibly harmful.

There are no levels to rape. No mild, moderate or severe. Someone that is raped by a husband is no less a victim of rape compared to someone dragged off a street by a stranger. Rape is rape and No means No. Until this is universally accepted, women will continue either suffering in silence or seeing the perp get away with what he did to her, in a court of law.