DH didn’t stop when I said stop

JAPAB

Nor can I, no. But that doesn't mean the woman 'is agreeing to a grace period', does it? It means a lot of people are prepared to suggest a grace period is reasonable. As the law stands, there isn't one. The person either has a reasonable belief they still have consent, or they don't; and my response to 'Are you sure?' would be 'Yes, I'm fucking sure now get off.'

What the FUCK? What the actual FUCK? How is it different? In what legal or moral sense is it different? Be specific.

Both are wrong, but a man who forces sex with a woman who has said “No” from the outset is commiting a significantly more egregious act the man who doesn’t withdraw immediately following consent being consistently given previously. Are you seriously thinking that both should be receive equal sentences should they be convicted of the two crimes? That would be like saying a driver who did 31mph in a 30 zone should receive the same treatment as one who did 80mph.

There is a legal definition of rape, you know, wherewithal.

There is astonishment towards those who are apparently unaware of the basic concept underlying the law - that sex without consent is rape, and that continued sex after consent has been withdrawn is rape.

It's not a question of people having 'the gall' to disagree with what you imply is a set of individuals who have set themselves up as judges on this topic, relying on their own set of principles for their pronouncements.

Lots of women come to the realisation days, weeks, months or even years later that they were raped in the past. It isn't an expression of contempt for anyone to say without mincing words that an incident was rape and not sex, or that it was sex up until a certain point and from then on it was rape.

It is an attempt to cast light on confusion, and an attempt to empower a woman to confront a man who clearly feels entitled to treat her body as if it were a piece of meat.

As if it were his piece of meat actually.

Well, you are agreeing to a "grace period" if you would allow him a period of time to process and then withdraw.

I really can't see any court convicting a male in a hypothetical scenario like the ones I posed. Or "are you sure" is met with "yes" and then he withdraws.

JAPAB

There is no right to a grace period. Full stop. A woman might decide she doesn't mind the delay; that is her prerogative. Legally, stop means consent has been withdrawn, so any delay over the time it reasonably takes the man to process 'stop' and get his cock out is taken at his risk.

The claim is that Yes Yes Yes Yes No is absolutely no different No from the get-go.

I'd agree that if the "no" comes during the during then there is probably a "grace period". A (very) short period of time where he stays within her ("are you sure?" for example). I do not think it is the case that anything other than an instantaneous springing off her, is rape.

So I suppose, hypothetically at least, you could get a "stop" during the during, "I am just about to finish" "go on then" with no actual rape occuring because it was within the grace period.

None of this is even a question if the "no" comes pre-penetration.

The claim is that Yes Yes Yes Yes No is absolutely no different No from the get-go. Given the circumstances here, you’re simply not going to get the entire jury to agree.

What the FUCK? What the actual FUCK? How is it different? In what legal or moral sense is it different? Be specific.

And when I said 'here you go again' what I was doing was lumping your post in with the hundreds of other troglodytic, back-to-the-Stone Age bollocks posts that are attempting to place the responsibility for sorting this out on the OP, rather than the person who broke the law. You're welcome.

There you go again.

That was my first contribution, so there is no about it (apologies to all for summoning an especially odious politician, but it’s a rather famous line where I come from). I didn’t say forgiveness is a right, nor that a victim is obliged to forgive.

I may have missed it, but I don’t remember anybody saying that rape cannot happen in a relationship. The crux in this case is obviously the timing of the withdrawal of consent. The claim is that Yes Yes Yes Yes No is absolutely no different No from the get-go. Given the circumstances here, you’re simply not going to get the entire jury to agree.

DH says he was ‘past the point of no return’ and was horrified that I have been dwelling on it all day.

Maybe you were “dwelling” on it, OP, because you were horrified that your husband went on having sex with you without your consent.

I’m sorry, I don’t know where you go from here but he needs to accept that what he did was very wrong and can never happen again. At the moment he’s dismissing it.

I've been on this site a long time. I don't ever think my jaw has dropped so often for so long on any thread before.

Op. If you don't feel you were raped, thats absolutely your call, your feelings are yours, call it what you want.

Legally and technically you were of course, and you must be bloody reeling right now.

Tell your husband you need space to process what he's done, and talk to someone you love and trust, I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this.

Take it easy love

However, if Stephen Lawrence’s father can forgive his son’s killers, it’s within the realm of possibility the OP can eventually do the same with her husband. Of course, only she can know if he’s worthy of it.

There you go again. Forgiveness isn't a right. It can't be required if anybody. Although you say you understand that it is totally up to the OP whether or not to forgive, actually, your use of a 'much worse things happen' example suggests that you still want to minimise this and place an obligation on the OP to do the same. She doesn't have to. If she doesn't feel she was raped, that is fine by me. If she doesn't want to forgive her husband, right now or ever, that is fine by me. It's none of my business.

But what I don't find tolerable is any attempt to change the definition of the word 'rape' to exclude non-consensual sex in relationships, or non-consensual sex where consent was initially given, or to place obligation on a victim to forgive their rapist because of the mortgage, or the kids, or because they love them. That has implications for me and for everyone else, and it isn't acceptable.

Most people here have agreed with themselves that what happened was rape, and summon horrified contempt for those who have the gall to disagree. This contempt would logically extend to the OP, who has also said, twice now, that she didn’t consider this to be rape (though it’s true she also said “I know that doesn’t count for anything"). Her AIBU, if I’m reading it correctly, was if her partner’s ‘opening the floodgates, past the point of no return’ excuse had any merit. I think we’re all in agreement he should’ve stopped. The clemency a precious few would grant him is contingent on his understanding that he went too far.

Just as logically, forgiveness as mooted by the unfailingly thougthful villageshop is the only way forward if the OP wishes to continue with the relationship. I don’t think anyone would blame her if she didn’t, even us “rape apologists”. However, if Stephen Lawrence’s father can forgive his son’s killers, it’s within the realm of possibility the OP can eventually do the same with her husband. Of course, only she can know if he’s worthy of it.

Luisa
Never once did I say that I, or others thought “the OP should just get over it” EVER.

If you think there is a substantive difference between 'forgiving' (cf Village) and 'getting over it', please explain.

Where was his self-control?

I agree that when people say he 'couldn't stop in time' they mean he couldn't stop himself ejaculating, but I think there is also an assumption that, since he was going to ejaculate, he had the right to keep going, and that I find utterly unacceptable and sad

If you take all the arguing, the mudslinging, the frankly horrendous views some have aired on this thread and the bickering away, it boils down to the above statement.

Nobody has the right to use a woman’s body for their own pleasure when she has said no. When she says no is irrelevant.

Any other argument is being a rape apologist. If you’re unhappy with that, ask yourself why you’re happy to justify rape?

"The point of no return" is definitely bollocks. If you've ever watched porn, the men are withdrawing so the ejaculation is filmed all the time. Of course men can control themselves. This myth is up there with the blue bollocks crap.

i do not believe the OP's DH didn't have time to stop as soon as she said. He should have stopped, but chose to prioritise his orgasm over OP's wishes and pain.

And forgiveness is only of use in a relationship when the other person acknowledges what they've done and actually owns it. Forgiving someone when they dismiss your concerns, and you know there's every chance it could happen again is just being a doormat.

I've been in a relationship where I was coerced into things I didn't want to do, stuff he knew I didn't like. Took me a long time to see that meets the legal definition of rape. I'm not with that person any more, and I've worked on my boundaries a lot. I'd leave someone who treated me like this, unless they totally owned it and didn't repeat it.

I don't think we're making this any easier for OP. We should be supportive. She needs to make her own decision and women arguing with one another about the rights and wrongs is not helpful.

Endless conversations and counselling to make a man understand that stop it hurts means stop it hurts? Fuck that.

The time to have those conversations is when they're children. If they still need to be had when they're grown men it's almost certainly too late.

Endless conversations and counselling to make a man understand that stop it hurts means stop it hurts? Fuck that.

Well my DH has waited months for us to have sex and I could see he was enjoying it, so I grinned and beared it and gritted my teeth as long as I could. He was nearly done when it got too bad... in the grand scheme of things, I've had worse done to me.

This is awful. So, men’s right to pleasure is more important than a women’s pain? It’s bad here that you believed this and decided to grin and bear it, that you knew that your dh must have believed this too. And that he was happy to continue.

What’s wrong with waiting until you can both mutually enjoy it? What would happen if you asked your husband to wait? Why wouldn’t he be happy to wait?

I think from what she told me, the ability to have the time to examine your thoughts, feelings and anxieties in a neutral safe environment - with a qualified professional - who has no emotional investment in your relationship/s - is what makes the whole counselling experience so valuable. Anyhow, just a thought...

The time IS important though

It really is not.

She withdrew consent ("stop"). He acknowledged that he'd heard her withdraw consent but chose to continue on and finish ("I'm going to come"). Now if he had withdrawn expediently saying "damn, I was almost there" that would be very different, if somewhat insensitive. That is not what happened. He very clearly chose to disregard her right to withdraw consent. He didn't stop at the 5 second mark because that period of time was somehow meaningful, a boundary not to be crossed or because it took that time for him to process her statement. He stopped only when he had finished, and that happened to take 5 seconds or so. If it had taken 10 seconds or 20 seconds for him to ejaculate there is no logical reason to assume he would not have taken that 10 or 20 seconds.

The logic that nonconsensual sex is alright if it is over very quickly is wrong on so many levels. Can you imagine what would happen if your logic was applied in law? It's hard enough in many cases for the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt that consent was lacking without also having to counter a mitigation that the accused ejaculated in a timely manner.

Hmm, not sure why my post has randomly 'bolded' paragraphs

The suggestion that BACP counselling may be helpful, is, in my opinion, a good one too, OP.
I know it really helped someone close to me, although I can’t verify personally.

• the OPs DH did not try to excuse his behaviour by saying he did not hear her, so why are some posters suggesting that was the case?

• 5 seconds of thrusting at an existing injury is a fucking long time. Imagine someone rubbing sunburn, or suchlike, for 5 seconds.

• 5 seconds is how long the DH took to orgasm - not his 'reaction to her pain' time. The assault lasted for as long as he needed to 'finish'.

• The OP obviously feels very uncomfortable and somewhat distressed by the incident to initially post - please do not minimise her feelings with the 'I agree with villageshop' bullshit.

'point of no return' is bollocks - as PP have said, nobody would carry on coming if there parents suddenly appeared in the room. You could stop midway and still have an involuntary orgasm, but there is no 'point of no return' for thrusting. It was a choice*, not a mistake.

OP, I'm really sorry this has happened to you, and I'm appalled your concerns have been minimised by posters who appear to hold your husbands orgasm with such high regard. However you feel is legitimate, don't let posters, or your DH convince you otherwise.

Really shocked at some of the responses. Obviously I'm aware that rape myths are rife, conviction rates show that - but I've always considered MN to be largely intolerant of that bullshit. Shame on some of you.