for being a SAHM

I don't want to put words in Xenia's mouth (she can speak for herself) but I suspect she'd say that it's a bad idea to choose childcare because it's a low paying job. She has frequently expressed the view that doing low paying jobs is not a good idea. (She has expressed that view in different language)

iclimbedupamountain I disagree with you that Xenia's arguments are dispassionate and bald and that Awen is angry with her about that. Again I don't wish to put words in Awen's mouth, but I suspect that the reason she gets annoyed with X, is because X frequently ignores dispassionate argument which challenges her view. It is very irritating to see threads and know that because of X, it is going to be turned from an interesting discussion into a boring SAHM v WOHM knockabout. Frankly, it's boring and very frustrating when you've seen about twenty of those threads in the last month and at no time does X address any points she doesn't want to, she just carries on hammering home her view (with which we're all familiar). It is like listening to a politician on the Today programme. And that can get very annoying and people express themselves accordingly.

Sorry if I'm putting words in either of your mouths, Awen and Xenia.

Call me mad, I'd like to hear her exact words!

I'm also glad I work for a high flying Woman who respects my Career!

Callmemadam, interesting post.

I've worked for three SAHM, all had very well paid jobs before having children.

No1: Full time Housekeeper/live-in Nanny

No2: Live-in Housekeeper/live-in Nanny/Gardener/3 daily maids.

No3: Full-time Housekeeper/live-in Nanny/weekend Nanny/Driver/part-time chef/Hairdresser

None of the above Women were happy no matter what face they put on for the outside world!...No3 actually wanted to be a real Mum but her husband wanted her to have more interesting things to talk about at the dinner table!

Well all know her views! Ad infinitum.

Hear hear dinosaur! The voice of sanity!

Dinosaur, I don't need Xenia's endorsement re my career choice!

I'm genuinely interested in her views.

I'm not holding my breathe, I value my dull life too much!

Awen - I disagree with quite a few of the things Xenia says, but her posts are usually intelligent and yours, frankly, are not. Ironically, you actually come across as being more intolerant of different opinions - or maybe you're just intolerant of different opinions that are stated quite baldly? FWIW I think Xenia tolerates a lot of different opinions, she just doesn't hold back in declaring that she disagrees with them, and a lot of people are very uncomfortable with that sort of dispassionate argument - which is understandable but doesn't justify the sorts of personal attacks you've been making.

scotishthistle = dont hold yer breath waiting for her to respond. She tends to ignore other posts..

Xenia...I'll ask you again since you ignored my question (not for the first time)as I'm very interested in your opinion.

What do you think of Women who choose Childcare as a Career???

franca - same is true in France - it's much harder to take a career break/retrain/do part-time work/go freelance here than in the UK

At least in England it's easier than in other countries (I'm thinking of Italy, where I am from) to get part time jobs, retrain, and go back to work after a break of a few years. The majority of my female friends in Milano work full time.
On the other hand, in other countries (again I'm thinking about italy, or just Milano, as that's my experience) the access to good, cheaper nursieries is easier, so much so, that it is not such a taboo sending your children to nursery, even if you don't actually work.

Rantum - surely the SAHM/WOHM debate on MN greatly enhances people's freedom of choice by exposing all the arguments in stark terms? In RL the debate tends to get couched in politeness, which rather dilutes the points to be made IMO.

I believe in a society that allows people to balance freedom of choice and tolerance with a desire to protect its citizens from harm. Not sure it is relevant to this thread except for suggesting that the "SAHM or not debate" seems largely irrelevant in such a system.

Discuss [grin}

"almost a duty to put other women above your own children even if you think it's better for your children..."

Interesting point of view and not completely mad I think.

You could apply this argument to paying for private medical care or education; but I wonder how sympathetic you'd be to it in those contexts, Xenia.

"Almost a duty to put other women above your children" - PMSL Xenia, you are priceless. Just glad you put the Almost in there.

Re your much earlier comment about Hitler - I found that v interesting. What you said, that Hitler wanted to keep women at home, was true, but provoked an outraged response from some one, as the subject of Hitler often does.

I would say that Hitler's attitude to women was kinder than his attitude to Jews, Gipsies, Slavs, the disabled, mentally ill and many other minorities who suffered wholesale slaughter under his regime. Hitler himself was "nothing but an ill-educated beer-hall demagogue" according to Ian Kershaw but that doesn't mean we should never mention him.

One thing he used to go on about to his inner circle was that smoking caused lung cancer. No one took him seriously at the time, and he certainly had done no scientific research in the matter.

oh fio quote of the week there

lucy - u couldnt keep away either morning.. shouldnt you be going around your duties and not on the PC

My dp is off today for our scan and laughed his head off at xenia's posts (btw dp is a very intelligent man ). If a man started spouting the stuff coming out of xenias mouth there would be uproar.. hmm there lies the truth.

good post btw lucy x

yet again xenia you talk complete and utter rot.

and I quote - 'as I've said before there's almost a duty to put other women above your own children even if you think it's better for your children to be home particularly if you're working in a good job. '

and surprise surprise you have managed to 'ignore' other posts with questions etc aimed at yourself. I am pretty much at the point where i pity you and your kids. I am so thankful for that fact that I am me and thatI have the partner and wonderful son that I have.

right - here's my story. I CHOSE to stay at home and look after DD at least until she starts nursery when she is three, then i will consider returning to work or retraining. At the moment i have a very part time, very casual job and during this time my dd has some time with her nan. My DP would actually really rather i returned to work now but respects my choice and accepts that it is not for ever. ARe there really women out there who prefer not to return to work when the kids are at school? If so, i dont think they do it as a reward for the "hard work" and if they do, well then they are lazy cows and don't warrant discussion in this forum. I think that women's careers often suffer as a result of being SAHMs but that is a choice for the individual, there is always a payoff, it is about what works for you and your family. So please don't pity me for turning away from my career to look after my unplanned DD, i've never been happier. Just recognise that i have made this choice and i do a bloody hard but rewarding job. I have an older DD (16y) and i worked long hours when she started playschool and up until dd2 was born, i regret this immensly because i KNOW that i wasn't around for my DD1 when she needed me as i was too focused on my own career. So when i return to work, and i am in more of a position to be choosy now i will certainly be doing no more than nine to five. There was a thread recently where the poster's DH would not "allow" her to return to work and that is quite a different story. We do have to remember Xenia that not everyone is blessed with a decent education or the intellectual capacity to take on interesting and challenging careers, there are plenty of women and men who take on the menial jobs (i was one of them) just to pay the bills, now they certainly get my respect.

In some areas though people's views are right, aren't they? Like say beating up your wife, children or husband is wrong. It's working which areas parents can differ and yet still be within a band the law should allow. For example I think it's fine parents can condition their children to be a particular religion but I wouldn't be very happy if it were an incest cult. There are also some men and women who think small children are damaged if they're not with their mothers most of the time - those who believe that really have a duty to try to stamp out the bad practice which is damaging the children in their view not just live and let live and allow the damage to happen.

So as to the question of whether women should largely give up work and be housewives and men carry on I do think there's an important political issue there to help women keep the rights they only really just gained otherwise employers do indeed say most women leave so what's the point in hiring them. If instead one man and one woman in a 1000 gave up work there would not be the same adverse reaction against female workers. In this unique period in British history only a few years since the equal pay legislation of about 1970 or whenever it was as I've said before there's almost a duty to put other women above your own children even if you think it's better for your children to be home particularly if you're working in a good job.

It's looking after under 3s which is the most hard work. I can see that some women do that for 5 years and then enjoy the next 5 not working whilst they are at school as a kind of bonus period off to make up in a sense.

As for financial investment - yes many men do pay after divorce but plenty more don't as countless debates on divorce web sites show, all kinds of schemes - men who truly loved you and respected your role as housewife whilst you were married and you could never imagine going off with someone younger who then does and engineers is to there's no money, who persuaded you to remortgage the house for his business or who hides assets abroad or moves away and can't be traced. Divorce is a much bigger risk than if you're dependent on a man than death and much more likely to happen.

Nice one, Lucy.

Nice one, Giant.

Off to bed now.

LOVE YOU .................. MEAN IT.

Missing you already.