for being a SAHM

As you say, Xenia has made her mind up on the issue of whether children are better off with their mother at home or working and doesn't want to discuss it.

However, since she never had any choice in the matter (her ex-husband being a teacher and very unlikely to be able to afford to keep her and five children in a manner acceptable to her) it was surely actually just much easier for her not to address the issue?

We all make decisions based on circumstances as well as ideology.

What is more insane is the idea that all work outside of the home is a selfless contribution to society. (And that applies to men and women)

It is rather mental isn't it - the idea that all children everywhere are better off with mothers who work outside the home.

Wierd.

I agree with Mr Awen, children are better off with their Mother out earning if she wishes not to be at home with them & finds it dull!

how do i respond?

I think that i would be better off making nuclear bombs for 40 years than raising my kids for 40 years - especially if they paid me heaps while I contributed to total world annihilation, hurray!

Honestly folks - she has made up her mind (she said so!) you are not going to change it - but she wants to change your mind - get out of the debate now and save your sanity!

MrAwen again -

My comment regarding xenia's children perhaps being happier with her being a 'working' (?) mother were due to her latest comments.

"For me it's not an issue at all because I think children actually can be better served by a working mother than one at home so in fact you're doing your best for them by leaving them with someone else so it's not even a debate for me. it's a closed book, settled argument, not even neutral might be okay to work or okay at home but on a balance of most things better to work. So I don't even need the mental debate over it."

that seriously was my other half. With the other comment.

iclimbedupamountain. I dont care tbh how i came across regarding xenia. in general i like to think i am a tolerent person as in all honesty whatever works for a family works for a family. I have not suggested that it is wrong to have a career niether have i said it is wrong to stay at home. So basically i dont give a flying feck if you think i am intolernt of others views.. perhaps the person whos views i am intolerent of in this regard are xenia's. I think from time to time we are all a bit less tolerent of someones views, like you are of mine.

Go awen go awen! actually that was a little uncalled for. i don't consider Xenia to be a bad mother, i daresay she has worked her behind off to do what is best for her children. Its simply her "my way or the highway" attitude that bugs me.

Xenia - I agree that your children are probably better off with you at work

From MrAwen

what is your mission xenia, if you are so certain that working is better for your children that you don't need the mental debate, why oh why are you debating it. Being a working mother is not better for your children, anymore than being a SAHM, it is just what works for different families.

When I have children I'll take them to work with me, I'll be doing the best for my children by working & being a full-time Mother...Yes?

Some of the most heartbreaking stories I've ever read have been about the abuse of children who were evacuated during the war.

It was the standard example though wasn't it - all those mothers during the war making munitions and tilling the land so we were all saved from Hitler's advances - small children sent to Cumbria for 3 years to stay with stangers, real strangers in this case, not loved known nannies, so we defended this country. Go anywhere like the idealists under early Mao, the jews on kibbuzes and for the greater good chidlren are put before the adult and political aims. It's not a novel new point of mine.

For me it's not an issue at all because I think children actually can be better served by a working mother than one at home so in fact you're doing your best for them by leaving them with someone else so it's not even a debate for me. it's a closed book, settled argument, not even neutral might be okay to work or okay at home but on a balance of most things better to work. So I don't even need the mental debate over it.

Should a nurse spend 40 years nursing or be a housewife for 40 years? If I can earn money, give to charity etc it's better. Surely it's better Bill Gates earned what he did and rids the planet of malaria or whatever his aim is than was a stay at home father and househusband for 40 years.

hmm

So my point about whether you think your argument about sacrificing the welfare of your own children for the common good stands up in education and/ or healthcare? I am actually interested in your views on that because I don't think your view is completely mad - there is a balance between what your own children are entitled to and what is the common good. Some people come down on the "my children's welfare comes first every single time, I'm buying them a 4x4 to get in and private education and private healthcare and sod other people's children" and that is a perfectly understandable viewpoint. Others come down on the "I know a small family car is not as safe for the people in it as a 4x4, but it is safer for the wider community and therefore I'm going for that one" etc. etc. I'm intrigued that you think that women going out to work even where they believe that that would damage their children, is in the same type of category - ie common good versus family/ individual good.

Xenia makes me laugh... a lot .

Xenia, did your hubby run off with the Nanny/cleaner/maid?

this tread and those like it have turned me into a bitch! (like i wasnt one already, now excuse me, i have to go and sharpen my claws on the new leather sofa)

oh xenia, for a feminist (i've noticed this alot) you do seem to have a very low opinion of women! I think i would find that a nanny, teacher, nurse, dinner lady may have more to say that would interest me than a city trader TBH. But i guess you don't mix with such plebs so that is something you wouldnt possibly able to comment on, i suspect you will just plod on with the same argument, im surprised you dont cut and paste it from the Times.

this is now a not very nice thread...

stop it girls! put your gloves away... nice cup of tea.... and a bit of fresh air...

Not nearly as interesting as I thought it'd be!

I've no wish to steal somebody else's husband (my Mother brought me up with strong morals)or work for a rich man who's lost his wife a la Maria!

Money does not always equal happiness Xenia!

But one way to deal with that is just to ignore the person there is an issue with and not answer her or his posts. That could easily be done if people had no interest in what I say or if my points didn't niggle at their own insecurities about their often wrong supposed choices.....

I do try to answer direct questions. I can't always pick them all up because of doing other things at the same time.

This was one "What do you think of Women who choose Childcare as a Career???"
What do I think of people in general may be you start with - some people choose to spend a life in thought or in prayer or an enclosed order or single or in the priesthood. I would never say those people were worse or not as good as your average City trader. They may do less good actually on some bases but they are no worse.

I have 3 children at university who need to choose at least how initially they will spend their lives/work. I know that people can be very happy in well paid work and don't then have all the stresses you see on mumsnet about my man who I depend on has run off with a younger woman and my income is zero and I'm completely stuffed or we can't afford a house as house prices are so high; or nannies are too expensive etc etc so I do think if you encourage children into very interesting well paid jobs on average that probably serves them best. But if they have a passion for something else so be it as long as they understand the implications. Quite a few nannies have set up childcare agencies and sold them off for large sums. Lots of career choices can lead to a profitable exist.. or perhaps better route for my daughters.. be a nanny to someone rich and nice and pinch him from his older wife.... classic solution for some. Look at the Sound of Music story.