(or completely old-fashoned) to feel a bit shocked about this?

perhaps the way is judo or similar that teaches self-defence and being able to control an aggressor without necessarily hurting them? it will also teach self discipline which is useful.
my two ds's are taught not to hit - i will want them to be able to defend themselves but hitting back isn't always the answer. there's always a bigger child who hitting back isn't going to help/work but if he can put him on his ass with a judo move it will stop the bigger child as it will make him look silly.

..and what if a child is being bullied by an SN child? There are lots of problems about this.

Obi, I wasn't implying that all SN kids hit, just that some do (been lots of threads on this). Lots of kids do, of course, but if a child has SN, I'd hope there would be a bit more understanding and a bit less thuggery. And if you teach your kids to hit back, that's not going to happen - they can't be expected to work out in every situation whether the other kid has SN, for instance. Or is having other problems.

I've seen both sides to this.

DS3 (in infants) went through an aggressive phase, and whilst we (and the school) were doing our utmost to deal with it, certain parents were encouraging their children to hit back. All this did was exacerbate the problem.

DS1 (in secondary) got attacked three times by a couple of lads one weekend. He walked away the first time, the second and third he ended up on the floor being kicked. After that we told him to defend himself if the situation arose again. When the inevitable happened, he floored the lad and had no further problem.

In an ideal world, everyone would teach their children not to retaliate. Unfortunately that doesn't happen.

I like you obimomkanobi, and 100 bonus points for having THE coolest Mumsnet name.

It's very, very difficult. I want to teach DS not to be violent (I have a DD at school already but this seems to apply more to boys). On the other hand, I don't want him to be the kid of kid who is an easy target. I was never seriously bullied at school, although a couple of boys who liked to throw their weight around "marked my card"; I used to avoid them and parry verbally with them if I ever had to confront them.

my son has SN, he is autistic. his school does a fab job and are very good.

unfortunatly he is excitable at times and there are other times when he finds social interactions frustrating or confusing and his only way of dealing is to push the people away, that can sometimes be quite violant.

there is very little i, or his teachers can do to prevent this other than lock him ina room alone.

Sn is a very broad term, just because your child doesn't do something doesn't mean other wont. your childs SN could be purely physical.....it is wrong to judge al children by your own child, whether that is NT or SN.

It is always wrong to resort to violance but it is natural for a child that has been hit to hit back, unless they are taught more apropriate ways of dealing with it. I know that if my ds has hurt someone and i am told he has been hit back i certainly dont blame the child that has hit him.

Edam said

"those who teach their children to hit back - what if the original hitter has SN, for instance, and doesn't have the understanding to moderate their behaviour or the empathy to realise that hitting is not nice? Is it OK for your NT kid who should know better to hit an SN kid who may not have that ability?"

One of my children has SN and funnily enough doesn't go around hitting other children at random. And if he did I would question whether his current school setting was the right one for him. However, if someone 'bullied' him I would hope that he would give as good as he got.

My 'normal' children are just ordinary kids. If someone was to hit them I doubt that they would weigh up all the options before retaliating. Harsh, but true.

Unprovoked violence is unacceptable, but if anyone hit me I would retaliate. And that is what I have advised my children to do.

Bullying/violence as children get older doesn't just happen in the playground where teachers can be called upon to mediate. It occurs on the bus, on the walk to school or when you are out with your friends at the weekend.

Parents need to be realisic.

i tell my dd to hit them back as hard as she can and they should leave her alone, it was the same when i was at school, i got bullied for years until one day, i smacked them back very hard, and they left me alone. it is not ideal, but when you can't be there all the time, and the teachers do not deal with it, i think your child should be allowed to defend themself.

i tell my dcs they can hit back if they think it's necessary, but only as a last resort.
teenage boys are strange - my 14 yr old is very popular and he and his friends more or less beat eachother up for fun

Hmm, i teach my DD no hitting. but then she gets thumped. she gets v v upset if the thumper is not punished. so i think i am going to maintain the 'no initiating violence but i won't get cross if it's self defence ' approach. FYI i was bullied at school, not physically but girl bitching, for 7 years. It was very very bad. It stopped when i gained the confidence from another physical activity (climbing) to laugh at the bitches. There is another answer to bullies; they are weak insecure people who can't stand up to more confident people.

Boys have been hitting each other in play grounds since time immemorial. I think it is a bit of a man thing; more of a father/son conversation/dilemma. Mothers aren't supposed to advocate it (and nor would I), but I wouldn't be unduly shocked if my dp said it to our ds, providing it was couched in terms of self-defense.

not just a man thing

It is a man thing. i assume the aggressor is, say, over 6, who clearly know it is wrong to hit. He hit, and got hit back. Don't think men tend to dissect too much.

My dh grew up in a comprehensive (not particularly rough). He says that to avoid being bullied, you have to stand up for yourself - at least once. In this way, even scrawny ones can avoid being bullied. The worst thing is to just take it or report it! Sounds scary, but thems the rules.

It's not what you're meant to teach your children, but it is what a lot of parents advocate. So it doesn't surprise me.

I don't agree with that mindless thug, the father described in the playful boxing moves scenario, but not hitting back in most instances is simply not effective.

My DS is always being hit, punched, kicked and pushed at school. He tells the teachers. They half-heartedly tell the kicker/ puncher/ hitter/ pusher off. Boy apologises, then kicks DS again later on.

I've told him to hit back and he says "we're not allowed, I'll get into trouble". To which my response is "you'll get into trouble for five minutes, but it will stop all this punching forever".

IME schools simply don't supervise children closely enough to have a "never any hitting" policy in the RW. The anti-bullying policy in his school is very obviously simply a piece of paper to show to OFSTED and parents. It means sweet Fanny Adams to the kids in the playground.

as already said, teacher/adult not always going to be around. kids do need to be able to sort out thier own problems to a certain extent. I still don't feel comfortable about hitting and have never actively said 'hit' but it's clear that having a total 'no htiting' policy just isn't going to work int he real world in every situation, but is surely going to leave our kids feeling disempowered, as it did my son.

Anyone remember the Coward of the County?

I went to a reallly rough inner city school.
If I hadn't learnt how to stick up for myself I would have been mincemeat!

At one time I would have agreed with not hitting back - however, based on experiences with all three of my children, I would now (and will) encourage GS to hit back. Both my girls were brought up with the don't hit - walk away thing. DD1 took notice and as a consequence was bullied all through comprehensive school and it has taken her until her mid-twenties to get over it. DD2 took absolutely no notice whatsoever of our thoughts on the matter - and defended herself (and others)whenever necessary - she developed into a confident, articulate teenager and young woman.
DS1 was bullied all through the infants and the first two years of the junior school by one particular person who was twice his size and nothing more than a thug. DS was regularly covered in bruises and even had his arm and bones in his foot. No-matter how we approached it with the school, nothing changed as the school were frightened of the other boys parents and entire family. The police were absolutely useless. DS became withdrawn, screamed when he had to go to school, wouldn't go out with his friends for fear of this other boy being around. We approached the parents - to no avail - they were as bad as their son.
DS took matters into his own hands, and whilst I wouldn't condone this particular type of action - it certainly worked... He waited in the school yard until the thug was running past and stuck his foot out. The thug tripped over it and went sprawling into the gravel, breaking his arm and taking skin off his face, arms and legs (which was actualy nothing compared to the stuff thet he had done to DS in previous years).
The parents threatened to take us and the school to court - so we told them to go ahead and then listed all DS's injuries and the results of the bullying from the previous four years. They became very sheepish and left. Their child actually stopped bullying the other kids and strangely he and DS eventually became friends by the time they moved on to the comprehensive school.

This is such an interesting thread. I have seen ones like this that were so very anti- hitting back, there were huge arguments about it

I'm with you Fio.
In an ideal world child would tell and all would be fine.
Unfortunately teacher/ parent isn't always going to be around.
My kids know that if someone hurts them deliberately then yes they can hit them back I don't have a problem with that.