to think my 2 year old's behaviour is extreme?

Hi how’s your daughter now ? ☺️

Coupled with the sleep thing yes it could be within the realms of something like ADHD, however, the problem with thinking anything like that is that at this age there is literally no difference between a child on the challenging end of normal and a child with ADHD. What makes the difference is whether they grow out of it or not - and most children absolutely do.

My advice for dealing with it would be the same anyway - it's all just about immature development of skills.

Short, immediate punishment such as naughty step, chair turned away from the table, remove toy for five minutes. Don't reward bad behaviour with attention but do try to reward good behaviour with attention when possible.

Look up Hand in Hand Patenting, a really different approach that really works, and saves your sanity.

I think there is somerhing in the overtired/over stimulated explanation as well. I'd maybe swap one of the toddler groups for a long walk in the park, that way she gets lots of positive one to one attention with you and its a calmer environment to let off steam than todfler group (baby will hopefully nap/be chilled in pushchair)

I think there might be something in the overtired explantion, especily if she doesn't sleep well at night too.

Can always tell when mine need a snooze when they are throwing things or crying for no reason.

I've been told when i was small i used to run round all over the house when i was tired trying to keep myself awake.

I was also told a lot that my 2 year old was normal. He's 8 and being assessed for autism. I am not saying your child is autistic, of course, but here are a couple of ideas that worked well with DS and are perhaps a bit different to the norm.

• explain less. When DS is stressed he can't process language very well. Explanations of why we mustn't do xyz go over his head and further stress him out. Just a very clear no.
• visual timetables, so he knows where he is going now and next. Maybe even photos of people he'll see.
• if about to hit, bite, push etc, try offering a different physical stimulus such as a hug. This sounds bizarre but worked much better than distracting with a toy. Sometimes they do physical things because they need a big sensory input.
• strategic car journeys after lunch to "force" a nap if tired. That's pretty mainstream though!

Sounds totally normal.

One more book to recommend: Calmer, Easier, Happier Parenting. Like most of the other good ones, it helps you focus on the positives while giving good strategies for dealing with bad behaviour.
FWIW, that sounds like a difficult toddler, but well within normal range.

I think that sounds quite extreme for a neurotypical child. I have a child older than yours who had extremely disrupted sleep from birth for a physical reason, and has always ticked every box on the hyperactivity questionnaire. It's been solved by medical intervention for the physical issue, and he's much calmer (and sleeping through - yay!).

Especially in smaller children, that level of physical hyperactivity can be attributable to poor sleep.

It may well be that the difficulty settling, and the early waking, are actually attributable to overtiredness rather than not needing that much sleep.

I'd work really hard on sorting that out - rule out any physical reasons for tiredness (eg is she a snorer - could it be that there's sleep apnea going on?), then maybe get some expert advice from a clinic like Millpond.

I've seen a colossal difference in my child with the sleep sorted.

Looking at your routine and what you say about her sleep I'd say she is overtired. Mine get more and more active, increasingly difficult, and harder to get to sleep when overtired. It's a vicious circle. There is probably also a bit of playing up for attention going on as she will still be adjusting to having to share you with a sibling. It's a big deal to a small child.

Do you get any one on one quiet time reading etc with just her?

** sonic? If we weren't

Ds needed to be busy all the time,sonic we weren't at the park he was up at the table sticking and glueing or playdough ,or drawing ( count the crayons and kept them up on a high shelf!)

i don't think it matters whether it is normal or not

Well, I think most of us would like to know as soon as possible if our children had SN of some kind that meant we needed to support them differently. I don't think OP is hoping to medicate her two year old into a stupor.

one of my boys was very "dynamic" and at that age I coped by having an iron routine during the day, including 2-3 hours activity in the morning (yes, that much! running/walking etc.), lunch, TV for an hour then 1-2 hours quiet time in his room, then out again, then dinner, bath, bed by 7.

The later I put him to bed, the harder it got.

I became a very rigid parent, but the cast iron daily routine really got me through this phase. It seemed to be what my kid needed (though at heart I am an easygoing hippy, I ended up as super nanny )

Try entertaining her and distracting her with stimulating things to exercise her brain and use up her energy, rather than shouting louder and louder. If she has energy she does not know how to expend, she will expend it responding to you shouting. some children do not sit like dolls and no amount of shouting is in any way going to affect that.

i don't think it matters whether it is normal or not - unless you are hoping to be able to diagnose something which will enable you to tranquilise her with medication? but that seems a bit weird.

Normal - but the bloody difficult end of normal. Don't feel guilty for struggling to keep your temper. This is a really tough stage.

If she wants to tantrum about stuff like butter, make sure she's not near something she can hurt herself on and then let her shout. After a certain point they're not really capable of calming down until the storm blows itself out. They have sod all control over their impulses and emotions at this age - you have just ended up with one that's bright, lively and into everything, so she has a lot of impulses to fail to control IYSWIM.

Think about practical changes you can make that will reduce the need for constant battles. For example, I struggled massively with my toddler tormenting the cat. He didn't understand about hurting, he just thought it was funny, and yes, he did the smirk. I was losing the plot at him and achieving nothing. In the end I had to separate them for a few months - that's all it took for DS to mature that bit more and now he doesn't do it. I also moved all the dining chairs into a different room because he kept using them to climb on the table, and the clothes airer lives on the landing where he can't get it. I have a stairgate in the living room doorway and he doesn't go anywhere else unsupervised. Anything I might need to keep away from him goes on a high shelf. It might sound like a lot of upheaval, but I find it easier. And then you can save the discipline for the really important stuff, which increases its impact and makes the rest of your relationship more enjoyable!

I wonder if maybe it's because you aren't making it seem like a serious enough thing to do and she isn't taking you seriously. Mine is a little older than that now, but we still did the same when she was 2. If she pushed someone or ran around the room destroying things, I wouldn't just tell her to stop or take her to another room for a minute, but she would have to sit out and calm herself down for as long as it took for her to be able to talk with me about what happened and be willing to make amends for what she did. Sometimes that means she sits out for 30 minutes until she calms down and we can have a good talk about and then she has to immediately go to the person she hurt and apologise and check that they are okay or she has to tidy up the room. She can't do anything else until she does that or she sits out again until she's ready to. That's been really effective. She's 4 now and she really does stop and think before she does things and when she does something she shouldn't, she immediately recognises it most times and apologises right away and sorts it out. Only sitting out for a minute on the 2nd attempt at pushing seems like she's getting let off pretty easy for doing something really unkind to me. I think even at 2 you can expect more of her.

I agree with the poster upthread who said 2yos seem like such babies when you have older dc. All this talk of consequences and negative attention-seeking and smirking doesn't recognise that 2yos are still in their cognitive infancy. This particular 2yo has been displaced as the baby very early in her life and it may be that you expect 'better' (= more mature) behaviour from her than she is capable of showing.

Thought experiment: imagine she is a boy. Would you consider her energy levels and behaviour to be quite so extreme?

How is her language, how are her fine motor skills?

If she's miles ahead then she does sound bright and is probably bored. Can she go to nursery a few days a week for more stimulus?

I think it’s normal attention seeking behaviour. Don’t take this the wrong way but do you think she may have found doing “naughty” things is a good way of getting your attention? I wonder if she’s jealous of her baby sister.

sounds exhausting and not normal to me.

chat with GP?

I have a DD with complex needs (ASD and severe learning diffs). At almost three she was non verbal, non sleeping, lots of other issues. I saw several HV's who all declared that she is 'normal' and that every child is different.

If you have concerns and think you need support, I would only recommend sidelining the HV and see the GP.

Most HVs have very poor understanding of atypical child development.

Oh yes, the smirking when getting told off

I remember that well

Sorry, but it sounds pretty similar to my experience of DD. Agree with PP that she may still need naps, DD was starting to drop her afternoon nap at that age but when she missed it she was horrible

Normal (and honestly I don't think she's really smirking but I can imagine it really seems that way when you're at the end of your tether). Two under three years old is very, very tough.

Occupy and distract.
But also talk to her.
Explain what you are going to do that day. The schedule.
Talk about whta behaviour you expect. Gently and clearly. With no 'no' or 'don't' just clear and positive
When you are about to do something tell her what you are all going to do.
Remind her of the behaviour that is needed or the fun focus of the activity.
If she doesn't do it, remind her gently and in positive words. I.e. We are sitting down for lunch now. So you need to sit on your chair with your whole bottom, and I will put your sandwich on the plate.
It is good to sit down when you are eating.

You need to help her with independent play, so that's you can do other jobs/caring etc.
And it seems that needs some work on,
She doesn't know what to do with herself, hence the distructive behaviour you describe.
So you need to either occupy her and guide her activity closely or you need to work on her independent play.
Making a cordoned off area into a yes place. Where there is nothing that she isn't allowed to play with is the first step of this.
You should do this with your youngetsbnow also. (But a seperate space)
Read about yes places
Janet Lansbury has a lot to say and help on this

Once your daughter understands your expectations and has a safe place to explore and play you will find it easier.

I haven't done so well on the yes place / independent play, but my son definetley responds better in every situation if I explain what we are going to do, and what is expected of him. And the gentle reminding as required.