Big row between DH and my DM. AIBU or is he?

Is maintaining the dysfunctional dynamic with your parents more important than establishing a respectful and healthy dynamic with your DH and children?

Right now you're effectively behaving like your mother in demanding that your DH prioritise you over his emotional wellbeing and probably the emotional wellbeing of your kids.

You can't demand loyalty if you ain't prepared to give it.

OP - I think these questions above are very valid and would love to know the answers. I think it might help you as well.

Op - what did you do when your mother was making the endless snidey comments to your husband?

Did you have his back? Did you make it clear each and every time that such a comment was inappropriate and that nobody gets to speak to the man you choose like that and still have you in their life.

Or did you do nothing and expect him to put up with it?

Too much projecting and armchair experts on this thread. Of course you don't go no contact with your mother because she can be a pain in the arse sometimes, major over reaction.

The priority for me would be speaking to your DH to find a compromise position with your mum you can both live with. I am sure he doesn't expect you to cut your mum out completely and ask him how how would feel if you told him the children couldn't see his mum? With a bit of calm reflection, I think you can reach a position where there is basic civility for an easy life but you maintain your relationship with your mum primarily through you and the children, without involving your DH.

You & DH both need to find a compromise you can live with - the ability to compromise for each other is the cornerstone of a long and happy marriage..

I'm surprised by the amount of people who automatically say go LC, or NC, or LTB after just 1 argument or so! So you all really have nothing to do with family ever again?! Surely if they've not done something truly awful/evil that has really hurt & affected you, you don't just cut them out of your life forever do you?! I don't get it. So DC end up with no DGP because DM laughed at DH's diet?! Eh?
Sometimes we have to deal with difficult people & situations in life, I personally don't feel that just cutting them out (especially not a mum/dad) is the best way to deal with it.
I do understand that some people's situations are horrendous & toxic & they have no choice but to do this for their own wellbeing. But I'm not sure this is the case for OP.

She was rude and he called her up on it. If she asks, tell her the truth. You DH doesn't like how she imposes her opinions on people and it is very waring for the rest of you.

I had some sympathy for you defending your corner against the armchair psychologists on here, until i read how you reacted to their row and your avoidance is very clear. .

FWIW, I once gve my father an ultimatum after our youngest was born. I told him he had to step up his behaviour if he wanted to see the DGC, his half arsed efforts were of no use to me and damaging to them. I stayed very calm and he got upset but he now sees them loads and is a reasonable grandparent. You have the power inthis scenario, not her.

I would stop going om holiday with them; being in confined spaces for an extended period can often lead to tensions and conflict. It's like the house guests adage; like fish, they go off after 3 days! Also, I agree with PP who said that on occasions such as Fathers' Day, this should be a time for the nuclear family.

Regarding contact with your DDs, it sounds as though your DM is struggling a bit anyway, as you say that one has serious SNs and that DM tires easily. So perhaps only leave them with her for short periods, or do things together - DH doesn't need to be involved if he doesn't want to be. I am sure he can find suitable excuses and I don't expect DM will be too disappointed, if they have a personality clash.

However, I think that DH has to respect your relationship with your DM, even if he doesn't want one or much less of one. There must be a happy medium between his seeing a lot less of her and never speaking to her again. He sounds a bit immature and petulant to be honest.

You and your DM love each other, but have some issues, like many families, but she is someone you can talk to, who cares and listens, so I cant understand why some posters are suggesting that you should cut her out of your life and not let her see her DGCs, whom she loves. That is beyond cruel. Imagine how you would feel if that were to happen with your own DDS cutting you out of their lives in the future.

OP I just wanted to reiterate what crazed said in the previous post.

Although I am now in the position of dealing with a narc mother, I was also in the position your DC were when I was a child. My M's father was very much 'in control' of our family and our plans, in a similar way that it sounds your M is with yours - ie you do what they want because the alternative causes too much trouble. My M always took her father's side and spent (what should have been) family occasions with her F, taking me and my sibling along with her. Over the years my dad got more and more pissed off with it and refused to join in. This eventually meant much of my childhood 'family time' was spent with my mother and her father, with my own father taking a back seat and leading quite a solitary existence. As a result my mother and father had a v damaged relationship - in short my M put him last and he was miserable a lot of the time (not surprisingly).

My father died and my grandfather (my mum's father) died soon after. My M has now taken on the role of the family narc with full force - you just do not argue with what she wants because the fallout is too great. Well actually, I did argue and I no longer see her. My sister is still putting up with her and is in a no-win situation chasing her own tail trying (and failing) to keep our M happy. Meanwhile my sister's DC are getting the full scapegoat/golden child roles forced upon them.

Yes I know I am describing my family, and not yours. But I look back and wonder why the hell my M didn't stand up for her husband and put her 'immediate' family first. Maybe if she had, she would have had a happier relationship with her husband and her DC. Maybe she would have broken the cycle and wouldn't be the miserable narc she is now.

All I really want to say is, please do not underestimate the potential damage that can be caused by allowing your M to dictate the way your family operates and putting her above your own husband. He will already know his place in the pecking order and has put up with it for 13 years. If he doesn't want to put up with her anymore, you must at least support his decision. If, as you say, you want a 'whole family' solution, the only one is to agree with your husband on this.

I think you're deep in FOG if you think that the fact that she's your mother outweighs the negative effects of treating your daughters differently. Abused kids/grandkids love their grand/parents because human young are biologically programmed to love their elders. Scapegoat/golden child dynamic will harm the sibling relationship as well as the girls' individual self-esteem. 😢

Narcs and abusers are often popular with non-family members because they actually know how to behave like a civilized person in real life or they find people who are easily manipulated and put up with their shit.

I think your h is perfectly reasonable to say that he wants to be NC with your mum and would ideally like the girls to be too. If they haven't already, it's a matter of time before they'll be following your lead and doing what she wants so she doesn't rage. 😢 He's put up with many years of this so the idea that he should suck it up more is unfair. I don't understand why you think that there needs to be a whole-family solution to this. You and your h are both adults with personal opinions and different 'types' that you get along with. Just because he goes NC, you don't have to go NC as well.

I hope you stood up to your mum when she took the piss out of your h's diet. He shouldn't have to put up with that kind of behaviour from an adult. You know that there are going to be tantrums so don't act until you've got everything in order practically and mentally.

You still seem to be taking it for granted that your DM's wants come before DH

• Dh - your children's father - has to suck it up and have father's day on a different day as DM takes priority - why can't a grown women have her birthday on a different day?
• why would you still be planning to spend Christmas and holidays with them?
• did you make it clear to DM that sniping at DH was unacceptable - or did you stand back and say nothing and let DH feel unsupported?

You seem to be so scared of saying no to your DM - but are happy to exclude your DH when he doesn't want to be picked at all the time.

Your DH is telling you that he is unhappy - yet you are planning how you can ride roughshod over DH - even contemplating leaving him at home for Christmas and holidays rather than say no to DM. The risk is that you will cease to be a family if you are not prepared to set boundaries around holidays - you may be risking your marriage

I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering whether OP stood up for her DH when the mum was making comments to him. OP said it took place over the weekend, so I suspect OP didn't tell her mum to stop it.

If this was a narc MIL thread, the OP would be told she has a DH problem and that she can go no contact and put boundaries in place to protect the children.

The list there of the time your dm expects you to spend with her is basically all your holiday time and special occasions. I have a narc mother, I am low contact now but in the past when I saw her more there is no way I would have expected dh to spend all that time with her.

It's very unfair on the family and I think you really need to ask yourself who do you mind upsetting most ? Your dh or your mum ?

Just to add about being the grandchild of the toxic grandparents.

My grandparents were toxic. They were both parented badly themselves from what my mum knows about their childhoods. I suspect you could go back many generations and find endless examples of abuse, neglect and toxicity in my family tree.

My mum was a good mum. She broke the cycle. By braking the cycle herself and by protecting me and my brother from our grandparents we are now both (relatively - it's all relative!) healthy individuals who are making at least a decent stab at parenting our own children. Hopefully in the future my children and my do will also be able to be good parents.

The future of my family tree is different to the past of my family tree because one person (my mum) managed to break the cycle. That is really rather amazing of her.

Thanks zebra. Has your DH explained your feelings to her? If so how did she react? Or does he just make excuses for you each time you are not present? How did you get out of them joining you on holiday?

When it all blew up I told her that I was out and i needed some distance from her. Our relationship would not be the same. DH was supportive and he confirmed my feelings however he also told her he would not go NC but he needed a different relationship with PIL. She blew up. Angry, emotional. We/I was accused of destroying 'her' family. All sorts was said. It was a very emotionally and mentally exhausting time however DH and I are happier now. We don't have the drama anymore. We don't have the tension between us because of MIL anymore. Life is so much simpler but we still have to stay strong because she wants a different relationship to us.

DH doesn't need to make excuses for me not seeing them because she knows I won't be there. I speak to her when/if needed and I am not off or rude but she knows that's as far as our relationship will ever go now. I didn't get out of going on holiday with them. It's DH, DD and my holiday and we normally invite them to come for a few days. They won't be invited. It will all blow up again I suspect but we will have to deal with it.

You have two options Op. Carry on as you are or do something about it. Doing something about it is not the easy option but it's worth the shot term emotional stress for long term happiness. As things stand you and your DH don't sound happy. Is this how you want to live the rest of life?

Op - what did you do when your mother was making the endless snidey comments to your husband?

Did you have his back? Did you make it clear each and every time that such a comment was inappropriate and that nobody gets to speak to the man you choose like that and still have you in their life.

Or did you do nothing and expect him to put up with it. (And then complained that he was "immature" when he finally realised that his wife wasn't going to say a word whilst he was abused and so he stood up for himself.)

If the first then yes - you have his back, he should have yours - the two of you need to work out what is best together.

If the second - well - you don't have his back, why should he have yours.

What will you do when the snidey snidey start being directed at your lovely innocent dd2? Because they will.

(Am the grandchild of toxic grandparents. Due to my parents excellent boundaries am pretty much in damaged by them. Some of my cousins were not so lucky.)

In terms of holidays and occasions I think what I would do is as follows

Xmas day with DH and your DC - you take DC to DM for a few days after Xmas or whenever is suitable

Holidays - again I am sorry but if she is generally quite difficult I think expecting your DH to spend a full week of what is also his (presumably limited) holiday time with her is unreasonable - again suggest DM goes on hols to wherever she wishes you and DC join her for a few days or a week or whatever you prefer

Birthdays - you could try and invite/attend something more sociable eg she gets invite to DC party where other people are present so less emphasis on her ditto you suggest something more social including other people for her birthday. Or you make birthday visits on your own and have her to you immediately before or after DC birthday

Sadly if she is like my MIL she is completely self obsessed and if your DH has tried over a long period of time to do his best and she cannot or will not improve or be respectful the price she will have to pay is less or at least different involvement in your family life -

Solidarity appears to be a one way street with you, he's supposed to 'have your back' being your buffer but when he decides enough is enough, instead of you having his back it's all 'what about me'? Where were you 'having his back' when she was making snidey remarks about his diet?

Given your level of FOG, I would be be very uneasy about your capability of protecting your children from the worst of your mother's characteristics.

You can't have it both ways, you complain that your DH is leaving you to deal with the fallout of his decision but if he were to confront your mother himself, you wouldn't like it either because there would be blow back on you.

Don't make the same mistake as your Dad and instead of protecting you from the worst of her behaviour, he chose to enable it. Your DH isn't you and 'sucking it up' no longer works for him and you can either have his back by respecting his decision or, you can not have his back by focusing on your needs alone.

There is no harm in children learning how to get along with people of all different sorts. Maybe reduce the contact to something that is OK for your nuclear family - but NC sends out the wrong message to the children.

I am sure your mum did her best within her personality and life experiences, just as you are doing with your parenting. All of us fall short of perfection - we are all human.

I am all for the middle ground in this situation - children need to see that life and people are not perfect, but they all deserve to be treated with respect and with tolerance for foibles. You may find yourself on the other end of this situation one day!!!

I really feel for you. You are in a very difficult situation. However imho, she's your mother therefore she's your responsibility and your problem. You can't force or expect your DH to continue a relationship with a narcissist. She clearly isn't very nice if you had to have therapy to deal with her behaviour.

DH and I had what I considered a very good respectful relationship with my MIL and FIL. FIL is lovely but will stick by MIL not matter what. Don't blame him they have been together forever. After DD was born over a of three year period MIL turned into a nightmare culminating in us having a huge argument a few months ago (thread of its own). Like your DH I made it clear to DH I did not want any further contact with MIL. MIL is fully aware I want a more distant relationship. I wouldn't stop her seeing DD but she has to respect our rules or contact will be limited. My contact is now very limited with PIL and all communication is done through DH. I don't expect DH to go no contact with his parents. They are his parents and he can deal with them how he wants. For DH sake I will see her for a few hours on Christmas Day, attend a lunch/dinner for PIL birthdays but that's it. We are due to go away for 10 days and they normally come for a few days but that will not be happening this time. I won't put myself in that position. MIL is trying to get things back to normal but I am not willing to go back because she won't change. From the brief information your mother sounds the same as my MIL. She won't change and it's unfair to expect your DH to shut up and put up.

So many posters trying to blame the DH

If this were reversed it would be a DH problem, So in this case its a DW problem.

Not his circus not his monkeys.

OP this is for you put the boundaries in place.

If I were you, I would support your DH in going very LC/NC with your mother, and just ignore it.

I would discuss in minute detail exactly what he fears in your DM regards to the DDs - at the ages they are now, and the examples you've given, it certainly doesn't sound like damaging favouritism to me, but if he is sufficiently concerned about it to want to cut DDs contact entirely with their GPs - who they don't see that much anyway - then it must be really quite bad, or your DH is reactionary and perhaps a touch "my way or the high way" about it. Words on a screen are not conveying either really.

Once I had a handle on exactly what my DHs fears were re DDs, I would then try to come up with a plan he was happy with that limited contact but did not take the nuclear option.

Don't go on holiday with them again. That's easy to avoid.

Your DH can be working away/out with his mates etc for as long as he likes when your DPs visit. If your DM notices, then you'll have to say "DM he finds you very hard to be around, and the argument on holiday where you kept needling him was the last straw, so he's limiting being around you." And then when she cries and rages, you can practise your grey-rock(ing)...

UncleJamie.... maybe. I'm pondering your theory. Certainly not consciously but perhaps I am afraid of rocking the boat certainly DM's rages aren't fun for anyone. Or maybe it is not bad enough to consider upsetting things for...

I sympathise. I never wanted DH to rock the boat, because my parents were dd's only GPs. I now wish I had let him tackle her before I did. But it's a very personal situation and as you say, there is definitely a Narc spectrum. It's good that you're considering things.

OP I think both you and DH are hiding from this to some extent - he wants to cut contact and you say you're prepared to do something, but it comes across quite clearly that you really don't want to antagonise your mother and would prefer it to be brushed under the carpet. (I feel like DH needs to suck it up, accept that you don't always get on with family members, and go back to our previous way of existing)

I'm not usually a fan of 'if the boot was on the other foot', but in this case I genuinely think that if this was your MiL and it was your DH who wanted to maintain the relationship not you, and was telling you she's not that bad, you'd be told you have a DH problem not a MiL problem.

I also think you're not giving him quite enough credit for having put up with it - presumably for your sake - for 13 years before he cracked.

I just saw your recent post OP about seeing them several times a year. If it is a full week at a time, that is a lot. Maybe you could go on less frequent trips and for shorter lengths of time. Above all I'd stand with your DH on this one or you guys could try a couple counseling sessions to sort through it and come to a decision, so that you can feel you are both making it and there won't be a resentment towards your DH in the future. If you go total NC then expect it might create a rift with other family members (siblings, aunts/uncles, etc) . We went through this but we weren't even going NC, just distancing ourselves a little bit more. Eventually people will accept it, but going NC is another story- you can't expect them to accept that. Nobody would, even if they weren't a narc.