Calling pedants, teachers, wordsmiths and class warriors.

Blu - what is your understanding of the term political correctness?

Thank you for the summary - i do not have a copy of the refs you cite to hand.

Interesting - but I would have a completely different understanding of politicl correctness.

I think there is something in so much unqualified praise for children's work that they fail to develop a discriminatory faciliyt - ir that it undermines the fact that they know that some things they do are better than others (I think that is a pillar of montessori teaching - that teachers do not offere critical feedback of work on the grounds of it being 'good' but allow children to make thier own judgement).

But I would be surprised if this so-called political correctness was really having such an effect on children in the way described. The context of value judgements on one piece of music being better than another, for examplae are strong, the arts are teeming with awards and prizes, from Turner to Booker via the Baftas...until I read the books you refer to i think i will still suspect that consumer desirability is more persuasive in distorting value on aesthetic gorunds than political correctness.

have you ever come across artists like antoni tapies or louise bourgeois or christian boltanski

anna8888

So if being PC is a great hindrance to happiness, then it would presumably be so much better if we were all racist bigots, beacuse then at least our children would grow up to appreciate beauty. I am speechless.

I'm not sure that political correctness stops anyone saying one thing is better or more beautiful than another.

I always understood it to mean not saying that one person is better or more beautiful than another, thus encouraging the belief that every person is of value.

Which, of course, is a belief that you may disgaree with.

WTF?

What definition of 'political correctness' are you working from Anna?

Blu - I did give references to books that I find explain the issue quite clearly.

To resume: "political correctness" discredits value judgement. Children brought up in an atmosphere of political correctness, where it is considered bad form to say that one thing is better/more beautiful etc than another have their senses warped rather than honed. They grow up not knowing the value of things and cannot appreciate beauty, which is great hindrance to happiness.

Comps thread

Comps thread? Link please?

Glad to hear it Mrs Badger, there was I thinking you might be one of the "bitter and twisted" ones

Wait, so 'smug and condescending' means 'contented', but 'wanting some explanation of theoretically scientific assertions' means 'bitter and twisted'?

Anna has just accused blackandwhitecat of not reading very much on the comps thread. This would be the same bandwcat who has posted some of the most thoughtful eloquent posts on the thread then. Sigh.

Actually some of us are happy in our slummy houses with our ugly DHs speaking lazy accented English.
Perfection is not the same as flawlessness.

I'm not sure anyone here comes accross as bitter and twisted!!We'd gathered though that you are very content with your lot!

Anna - can you please explain the downgrading of beauty : political correctness relationship? (or point me to where i may have missed it below?)

sorry, "like lots of posters".

Better to be contented than bitter and twisted than lots of posters.

How marvellous it must be to have such a perfect life Anna! Do you actually realise how smug and condescending your posts come across?

The car-as-status-symbol thing drives me nuts. What does it show about anyone what car they drive?

I like a nice big comfortable car for long journeys and a nice small zippy one for easy parking in big cities. Even better - I like living (like I do now) with a bus or tram stop bang outside my front door and can zip around town much more quickly than in a car.

I am in agreement with Anna8888 about the importance of beauty. i am less interested in human physic al beauty, but the importance of the opportunity to experience, enjoy and appreciate beauty in the natural world and the arts.
However, i am still wating for an answer to NQC's question about the aledged relationship between low-grade beauty and political correctness.

I see plenty of examples of cinfusion between beauty and consumerism and materialism, and the effects o9f mass production.

Also, isn't a concept of beauty in the arts too wrapped up in a cultural context to be rooted in any absolute standards? Diffferent scales in music, different cultural traditions and disciplines in art, and surelt individual taste? Even amongst very experienced and sensitive critics of art, there is a merked difference in taste. should we all work to some benchmarked standard of beauty? Part of the strength of the importance of beauty is the personal experience of absorbing it.

I agree with Aloha re language.
language is a precision tool. I think it's fine to go 'street' in certain colloquial conversations, but if you want to be able to get everything you can out of our power of speech, the more accurately you are able to use it, the greater it's effect will be. We undersell young people by sanctioning a descent into language as a blunt tool.

As grannyc says people often do want to show status. I don't think I'm particularly bad actually. I'm a Catholic and I sort of delight in my old car but then I suppose that's even worse, I'm pouring scorn on those around me who like to show off their wealth through their rather awful flashy cars. The internal ability to be happy with what you have rather than unhappy about what you don't have materially or even in terms of personal relationships is perhaps important to personal happiness. You need an internal contentment - the sun is shining or in my case today I can actually hear (after yesterday's ear treatment) rather than how awful I don't have a new dress because I can't afford it.

But in terms of children we tend to want them to do reasonably well as well as be happy and if they speak in a certain way in this country it can make their life easier so go for it. What is sad is children whose schools say speak and write how you like and the children have no idea that for certain people they will meet in life and work with the fact they split an infinite or say "on the weekend" rather than "at the weekend" will reflect badly on your child. Let them know and they say tough I'll speak how I like but don't keep them in ignorance.

I think it's perfectly all right, in fact I think it is psychologically healthy to acknowledge (a) everyone's natural advantages (b) the skills they have developed.

In our family we do it all the time. We go into immense detail about physical and psychological traits and how they are interlinked. I don't think it has done us anything but immense good - excellent for the self-esteem and for boosting our self-confidence.

Surely you don't think it's right for parents to go round saying - you're the pretty one etc. In fact isn't it an English tradition anyway not to go on about looks at all because we're not such a superficial nation, thank goodness. Glad I don't live in Brazil. Obviously if my daughters dress up to go out I might say they're pretty but I'd never say who was the best looking of the 5 or the cleverest for that matter even if those things are clearly known. I just don't think it aids family harmony. It's bad enough when they ask me which I love best which is a silly question as I genuinely love them all the same.

Yes, on the fitting in thing all groups do it. It's not particularly nice and teenage girls are probably the worst example of it - who is in and who is out and who are you speaking to and who not. My 8 year old barred a friend on his web site the other night and we had a discussion about on line behaviour etc and inclusion. If they say no one likes X because he's new to the school I would always say well let's try to make friends with him, imagine you were in his position etc. But it's how most societies work, isn't it even mothers or fathers at school gates looking each other up and down.

ROFL @ pointydog

i always find your posts very interesting xenia.
how much is "correct" grammar and the perception of beauty moulded by a desire to assert identity and inclusion in a group and exclusion of those with different views?
i am not suggesting that we don't have our own intrinsic responses to beauty, whether facial appearance or language, but that strong feelings about incorrect grammar and ugliness are motivated by a need to show status and superiority