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Rock and a hard place - My dog and new baby

707 replies

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 10:29

Perhaps AIBU is the wrong place to post this, as people can be very scathing. Please be honest but gentle with me!

Sorry this is so long.....

I rescued my dog over 7 years ago, when he was 8 months old. He'll be 8 years old in a few months time. He is a large cross breed (two guard breeds) and weighs over 40kg. He was poorly bred and poorly socialised and has been mentally screwed up by his bad start. He had multiple homes in his short life before coming to us. He did not go through a proper rescue centre and if he had a proper behavioural assessment, I strongly suspect he would have been put down. He would not have been rehomable - not because he's excessively aggressive, but few rescues will home dogs with even the slightest aggression.

His aggression is fear based. He's scared of strangers and other dogs. If properly introduced to a person or another dog, he's fine. In fact, he's a total baby and as soon as you have his trust, he'll love you forever. We spent so much time and money over the years on behaviourists, trainers and socialisation classes. He improved a lot, but he will always be difficult. We always walk him on lead and usually muzzled (as a precaution, he's never actually bitten anyone, the muzzle in more in case of other dogs) and actively avoid other dogs on walks. Walking him is stressful, but we mostly get out and back without incident. We do not bother introducing him to any people he does not need to know, instead we usually shut him away when we have visitors. However if we have overnight guests, he can be successfully introduced with a bit of time and lots of sausage!

Ok, so here's the main issue. When I got him seven years ago, I was not remotely thinking about children and had also expected an 8 month old puppy to turn into a normal dog with enough effort. I underestimated how much genetics would play and that he would never be normal. I thought I could turn him around completely. I couldn't,

I am now pregnant with our first child, although it's early days. It's been a very hard time as I've had hypermesis gravardium and have been (and still am) very unwell. I haven't got out of bed in weeks, and DH is working full time, running the household and sorting out dog. We normally split the dog walking (as Neither of us enjoy doing it due to stress) but he's done it every single day without complaining, even though I know it makes him miserable. I feel awful about it.

Both my SILs and MIL have never had any time for our dog. They aren't animal people and can't forgive him for his issues. As such, we have never introduced him to them. I find them quick to judge him and they all clearly think we should simply get rid of him. Now I'm pregnant, they've already started asking us about what we're going to do. It's so upsetting that I've asked DH to tell them to lay off.

Thing is, DH and I have known for a while that we would need to make a decision eventually, and we've had circular discussions but there's no easy answer.

We've tried for this baby for over a year and it's very much wanted. It's going to be hard enough have a newborn, without the stress about whether or not our own pet will harm it. Also (a more minor issue), our dog can be demanding and pushy. When he wants a walk or food, he will pace and whine, and drive you crackers. This behaviour when I'm sleep deprived with a screaming newborn is likely to push me over the edge.

DH is likely to have to pick up the dog walking for the majority of the time, as I cannot safely walk my dog and a buggy as I need two hands if an off lead dog approaches us (I might be able to cope with a sling, but still doesn't feel safe to carry a newborn and potentially deal with a dog spat). Getting a dog walker is not really an option, as our dog needs 1:1 care from someone who can handle him. I got this dog before DH came along, he's had a very difficult dog thrust on him which he wouldn't have chosen. DH does so well with our dog, but I know he does it for me.

I've tried to consider whether it would be realistic to keep the dog separate from baby during the day? Then let the dog out with us in the evenings? Once the baby has settled and is bigger there's a chance they could be introduced carefully.

Or can they? As I said, my dog is only scared of the unknown and very good when he trusts. The home he came to before is had 3 children under 10 and he was fine with them, but that was years ago. He has never shown aggression to a child, but then again we've never let him very near to them. He's a darling with us, and I do think he has the potential to be fine with our child who will be familiar and constant to him.

But how the hell do we ever find that out? Can I really actually try introducing dog and baby, or is it too risky? I feel like it might be irresponsible to even try.

He's a big strong dog. He occasionally jumps on us if he gets excited. He's heavy and his claws are sharp. He has hurt us both without meaning to. He could easily knock a toddler over, even if being friendly.

Thing is, I love my dog. Nightmare he is, but he's my nightmare and I'm responsible for him. I never wanted to be that person to turf out their pet because a baby turned up. My worries are genuinely to do with safety and whether this situation is manageable.

Thing is, even if we decide we can't do it, he would be impossible to rehome. There are thousands of perfectly nice dogs who can't find homes. My dog will be 8 years old, with aggression issues and also expensive seasonal allergies. Literally, no one would want him. I've had professionals say to be "he's lucky he has you, because I wouldn't put up with him!". I don't want to rehome him, but even if I decide to, I really think we would struggle to find him a home. He'd hate being stuck in kennels long term as he'd be so stressed, and I fear a rescue centre would simply put him down.

If we can't keep him, and no one will take him, the only other option would be to have him put to sleep - which is unthinkable.

I feel totally stuck between a rock and a hard place. DH and I have had this conversation so many times and never come up with an answer, because there isn't one! I think deep down I know it would be difficult, if not impossible, to manage such a situation safely. But I can't bear the idea of turfing out an elderly troubled dog and where on Earth would he go?!

So please be gentle. I'm pregnant, hormonal and ill, and I love my dog very much. So please be honest, but I can't handle a flaming right now.

OP posts:
ElspethFlashman · 26/02/2017 11:57

Yes it was through the original rescue. They had a behaviouralist so they were the ones I rang. They were brilliant and drove to pick him up that evening and had a big chat. The speed of the whole thing was traumatic but I have to confess the next morning I woke up to a mixture of grief and relief. The liberation of being able to out the baby down on the floor to change his nappy! Looking back, the first month of his life was grindingly stressful because of the dog. Sad

Their intention was to rehome him to a house in the countryside with an older person as he was a good guard dog and was really very snuggly and affectionate. Just had a high prey drive.

nachogazpacho · 26/02/2017 11:53

@Elspeth how did you get him rehomed? Was it through the rescue shelter?

fc301 · 26/02/2017 11:52

Norland do you feel as strongly about the safety & wellbeing of human babies?

Tamberlane · 26/02/2017 11:52

To the person who asked above....Of course vets will pts an aggressive 40 kg animal if their owner requests it....
Also who do you think puts down the animals that are not adopted in the pounds?plenthy of those are healthy young animals. Who do you think supervised the foot and mouth kill outs? Vets...because being a vet involves euthanising animals for multiple reasons not just poor health. And euthanasia is often not as bad as many alternatives.

OP your dog is not rehomeable...he sounds like a very dangerous animal and you have done incredibly well to manage him so well for so long.....but realistically his and your quality of life is not going to be good only the baby arrived.He wont be safe to be near a newborn if hes got high prey drive so will need to be locked away from his people and their new baby..and will get very limted walks as he can be walked safely with a pram.... could you live with yourself if anything did happen?even if you get through the baby years you cannot have other peoples children in your home with this dog.

Theres a lot worse thing can happen to a dog.. then having injection of sedation to take away the fear while your there to comfort him after....and then an overdose of anaesthetic while hes already sedated and wont notice the needle while his family with him to let him know its ok...a lot worse.

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 11:50

Hi Husky. I don't want money for him, I didn't explain that well. I just think Gumtree free to a good home advertisements tends to drawn the worst people and possibly even dog fighters etc. They'd love to chuck my boy into the ring for entertainment.

I don't want money for him, and I would also continue paying his medical insurance for the rest of his life, if we have to rehome him.

OP posts:
frayedbuspass · 26/02/2017 11:47

I think you have to think about levels of risk and severity of consequences. So what I mean is, I buy a new mobile phone and decide not to insure it. Although the risk of losing it or breaking it is pretty high, the consequences...having to pay off a contract or buy a new phone outright...would be annoying but something I could do without too much pain. On the other hand, I insure my house against destruction by fire. The chances of this happening are a lot smaller than losing my phone, but I couldn't handle the consequence of having to re-build my house without an insurance payment.

So, while it's difficult to gauge the risk of your dog hurting or dare I say killing your baby - maybe it's very likely, maybe it's extremely unlikely -the consequence of it happening is so completely and utterly unacceptable, that I don't see you having a choice other than to take out the "best insurance" available; that is, to remove the dog from your home in whatever way you can.

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 11:47

I do understand that Bert. That's why I wouldn't dream of putting him through a rescue centre (even if they could help him). I am also aware that I am responsible for passing on his problems. If we cannot keep him and a suitable private rehome cannot be found, I realise PTS is an option.

I once had it said to me that euthanasia is an ethical issue but not a welfare issue. I will agonise over it, I will have to live with it. I know the dog will not suffer and will not know what happened, and it may even be the least stressful option for him. Still doesn't make it any easier to consider though.

OP posts:
ElspethFlashman · 26/02/2017 11:46

In just going to be blunt based on my own experience.

NO.

We had a rescue who was pretty hard to manage but still nowhere near yours.

7 years later (so he was our baby all that time) I got pregnant. We really worried but hoped it would be ok as he was fine around kids - just bad around other dogs and cats.

Within a month of the baby being born we had started to get very frightened. It became clear the dog didn't identify it as a child - it identified it as a tiny loud animal. And its instinct was to chase and catch tiny loud animals.

We had thought the baby would be safe in the cot - nope. Dogs can JUMP. The buggy was a disaster as it's so low. Soon we couldn't even hold the baby in our arms without the dog jumping up on us to get to him.

Every time the baby wailed, the dog would vibrate. Sad

So we started becoming afraid to bring the baby downstairs whilst the dog was free. Started putting dog out in garden whilst baby was downstairs. Started thinking about dividing the house so their paths would never cross...... and then thought, hold on, are we going to be afraid for our child for years to come?

We realised it wasn't if the baby would be bitten, but when.

We rang the rescue and asked for a behaviouralist. We were stunned when they said at the end of the phone "Get that dog out of the house TODAY".

Happily in our case the dog could be rehomed to a house with no kids. But he was still our baby and it broke out hearts.

Now however with the benefit of hindsight we were very naive. That dog was never going to turn into a Nanny Dog, ever. It was pure wishful thinking.

Huskylover1 · 26/02/2017 11:46

I work with dogs, and there's NO WAY, I would risk your dog around a baby. Even my own dog (recently PTS for health reasons), who was very friendly with other dogs and people....I wouldn't have risked her with babies/toddlers, because they are very erratic in their movements, and many dogs find this threatening and can react with a nip or bite.

A newborn requires 24/7 attention. My son fed every hour for the first few months. Daughter was a bit less intense, but still, it's so exhausting, I can't imagine trying to keep a huge dog away from them!

Very large breeds tend to have a life expectancy of 10 years, so he is nearing the end of his life.

I would try re-homing first. And I'd do it now, as it could take months.

Not sure I understand the comment you make about not letting him go free to a good home? If you find someone you trust to take him on, I wouldn't care if I got money out of it (you won't - he's old and difficult). I think maybe I am misunderstanding what you meant there?

PageStillNotFound404 · 26/02/2017 11:45

Norland, I'm speaking as someone who has owned dogs their whole life, volunteers for a dog rescue (through which I took my own previous and current dog) and who has a dog with many similar traits to the OP's. It's precisely because I love and understand difficult dogs that I can appreciate why, in some cases - and I believe the OP's is one of them - PTS is the kindest course of action.

Part and parcel of responsible pet ownership is doing right by your pet. And sometimes 'doing right by them' is not keeping them alive at all costs - you have to think about their quality of life and happiness. Don't lose sight of the fact that the last 7 years have been bonus time for this boy - because the majority of people taking him on would have either handed him back to a rescue (who would likely PTS) or would have PTS themselves. OP has taken him as far as she can go.

Well put, MrDacre.

BertrandRussell · 26/02/2017 11:44

I wish people would understand that there are worse things for a dog than being pts. Like being in a shelter for months, for example. Or being repeatedly rehomed because people thought genuinely that they could deal with him and it turned out that they couldn't. People fear death because they know it's coming. And can put up with a few months of awfulness because they know it will end. Dogs live in the moment. And if that moment is awful that is all they know.

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 11:42

Norland, I'm not going to base my decision entirely on what Mumsnet advises. I've already said I will be consulting a dog trainer and likely also my vet who has known my dog for a number of years.

Mumsnet is useful as I am gaining the perspective of people who have need to deal with the stress of newborns and pets (both with and without issues). I've also had useful replies from people who work in rescue and have owned similar digs and understand the struggle.

I have explained a few times why a dog walker is difficult. And even with a walker, it doesn't solve the main issues, just makes it slightly easier.

No offence, but I'd rather take my advice from Mumsnet that Cesar Milan!

OP posts:
ExConstance · 26/02/2017 11:42

Dogs not gigs -

ExConstance · 26/02/2017 11:41

I think you should talk this through with a dog behaviourist before you move towards decisions. these larger dogs don't have long lives and he will be slowing down and mellowing soon - having adopted two gigs at age 8 and owned a collie cross who was totally hyperactive to this age it should be happening soon. snoring and asleep on my feet at the moment is a large staffie cross who spent two years declining in kennels when his owner's wife would not keep him once they had a baby, he has settled well and apart from bein dog aggressive is an easy dog to own. lastly when we had dS 1 we had two dogs who had been baby substitutes for 6 years, we came in with dS 1 and put his car seat on the floor, there was a perfunctarory sniff and thereafter he was totally ignored, just a boring new addition to the family. this is all very random, I'm really saying no one on an Internet forum can know, I can only suggest taking sensible precautions and seeing how you go, with some genuine expert advice to support you.

CountUpTo3 · 26/02/2017 11:40

I read the thread and then reread your OP - it's a sad decision to have to make, but it's clear that you're the only people who can look after your dog, and it's also clear that you're simply not going to be able to do that with a baby.

SilentlyScreamingAgain puts it much better than I can Flowers

Norland · 26/02/2017 11:38

Never mind AIBU being the wrong place to post; Mumsnet is the wrong place to ask such a question.

Haven't you done any Googling on this?

Have you read and considered and started to do any of the things suggested here and here and here?

All the people suggesting killing the dog, perhaps you could explain just how you arrived at your decision to give such advice and why you're qualified to give such advice? Obviously if you're a vet/canine behaviour specialist/RSPCA volunteer etc. you'll have a good deal of experience and will be speaking from a knowledgeable position. If on the other hand you don't own a dog/come from a family that were frightened of dogs/go on holiday to Korea and eat dog, you may well instantly shout 'kill it!'

OP the only advice I can offer you (as someone whose parents had the family pet euthanised when my younger brother came along and the dog would jump into his cot), is to read the views of genuine experts on canine websites. Every day on this planet, homo-sapiens slaughters 900,000,000 animals for food, most of them die in a fairly horrific way and the UK is prevalent in Europe for killing animals in a non-humane way (I buy my meat from an ethical butcher to avoid this) so you following advice here to have one more animal killed, isn't going to make much difference to the total slaughter numbers but this dog obviously means a lot to you and is probably a big part of your family. Surely you can find a dog-walker locally who will walk him solo, for at least 30" per day?

fc301 · 26/02/2017 11:37

I love dogs.
There is no way I would even risk it.
You have given your dog (family member) 8 wonderful years that he could not have had otherwise. It's time to take the right, sensible, and bravest decision.

MrDacresEUSubsidy · 26/02/2017 11:36

Lovelybath there aren't many shelters that have a no-kill policy in the first place. Those that do, such as mine, will still apply a PTS policy if it is absolutely medically necessary. I have seen cases before where a dog is so behaviourally challenged that it is impossible to re-home them safely, so they will advise the owner that it cannot be taken in and that the best course of action is to PTS. Take into account as well how happy the dog is likely to be going from the home he has known for 7 years, into a kennel - because it is 99% certain that he won't be re-homed. My rescue is struggling to re-home perfectly healthy and stable young dogs, including puppies, so an extremely challenging dog like OP's doesn't stand a chance.

Part and parcel of responsible pet ownership is doing right by your pet. And sometimes 'doing right by them' is not keeping them alive at all costs - you have to think about their quality of life and happiness. Don't lose sight of the fact that the last 7 years have been bonus time for this boy - because the majority of people taking him on would have either handed him back to a rescue (who would likely PTS) or would have PTS themselves. OP has taken him as far as she can go.

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 11:36

I've seen guard/security dog mentioned a few times. He'd be terrible at that. A good security dog acts as trained, and no out of fear. I wouldn't want my dog shoved in a yard, barking his head off because he's scared the whole time. Also, he goes to pieces when stressed so would not be able to be trained. If he goes to a new home, I want it to be a pet home where they can encourage him to be calm and secure, not exploit him for his big gob

OP posts:
nachogazpacho · 26/02/2017 11:33

x post

nachogazpacho · 26/02/2017 11:33

I would say that if you haven't decided by the time you bring your baby home you definitely will then. You will naturally prioritise your baby over your dog - no matter how much you love him he is going to end up further down the list of priorities. You'll need to start investigating rehoming now so you have the options. You never know, someone else may take him on. They may want a guard dog or such like. Can you ask around the local pet shops maybe?

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 11:32

My dog is not suitable to rehome through a shelter. He would not cope long term in kennels and he would likely be pts after a behaviour assessment any way. Dogs Trust would take him as while they "never put a healthy dog down" they also often refuse to take dogs with behavioural issues. I would certainly not send him free to a good home or Gumtree!

If I rehome him, it would be done privately and very carefully, with the support of knowledgable people (such as a dog trainer). I would consider a small home based charity but I doubt any of them have the resources to help him.

OP posts:
DearMrDilkington · 26/02/2017 11:32

Another thing to think about is when baby gets older and wants friends over. You won't be able to take the risk with a child the dog doesn't know. It's not just the baby stage you need to be thinking about.

SilentlyScreamingAgain · 26/02/2017 11:32

I think that it's fantastic that you have given your boy 8 good years. I took on a dodgy rottie, so I know what that will have cost you in terms of changing your lifestyle. You've done so much good for him.

I keep molosser type breeds and my experience has been that, to a dog, they 'get' babies/puppies and small things. I don't think that a full on attack is something you'd ever need to worry about, the dog will see your child as an extension of you. However, that will be your problem. The guarding behaviour could ramp up.

An 8 year old, 40 kg dog is coming towards the end of his life expectancy. If they are not already, his joints will be giving him pain soon. He's not suitable for rehoming, as you know.

You now have a chance to let your dog, who you've done so much for, go softly and gently to sleep, never having let you down. It's best for him and it's best for you. It's not easy but it's the right thing to do.

GreyHare · 26/02/2017 11:31

Lovelybath, there aren't enough places in rescues for friendly dogs with no issues, let alone specialised rescues that deal with aggressive dogs, it's not just that simple to sign him over to a rescue and a decent rescue at that as there are a lot of sub par rescues that shouldn't be allowed that rehome aggressive dogs to unsuspecting people.