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Rock and a hard place - My dog and new baby

707 replies

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 10:29

Perhaps AIBU is the wrong place to post this, as people can be very scathing. Please be honest but gentle with me!

Sorry this is so long.....

I rescued my dog over 7 years ago, when he was 8 months old. He'll be 8 years old in a few months time. He is a large cross breed (two guard breeds) and weighs over 40kg. He was poorly bred and poorly socialised and has been mentally screwed up by his bad start. He had multiple homes in his short life before coming to us. He did not go through a proper rescue centre and if he had a proper behavioural assessment, I strongly suspect he would have been put down. He would not have been rehomable - not because he's excessively aggressive, but few rescues will home dogs with even the slightest aggression.

His aggression is fear based. He's scared of strangers and other dogs. If properly introduced to a person or another dog, he's fine. In fact, he's a total baby and as soon as you have his trust, he'll love you forever. We spent so much time and money over the years on behaviourists, trainers and socialisation classes. He improved a lot, but he will always be difficult. We always walk him on lead and usually muzzled (as a precaution, he's never actually bitten anyone, the muzzle in more in case of other dogs) and actively avoid other dogs on walks. Walking him is stressful, but we mostly get out and back without incident. We do not bother introducing him to any people he does not need to know, instead we usually shut him away when we have visitors. However if we have overnight guests, he can be successfully introduced with a bit of time and lots of sausage!

Ok, so here's the main issue. When I got him seven years ago, I was not remotely thinking about children and had also expected an 8 month old puppy to turn into a normal dog with enough effort. I underestimated how much genetics would play and that he would never be normal. I thought I could turn him around completely. I couldn't,

I am now pregnant with our first child, although it's early days. It's been a very hard time as I've had hypermesis gravardium and have been (and still am) very unwell. I haven't got out of bed in weeks, and DH is working full time, running the household and sorting out dog. We normally split the dog walking (as Neither of us enjoy doing it due to stress) but he's done it every single day without complaining, even though I know it makes him miserable. I feel awful about it.

Both my SILs and MIL have never had any time for our dog. They aren't animal people and can't forgive him for his issues. As such, we have never introduced him to them. I find them quick to judge him and they all clearly think we should simply get rid of him. Now I'm pregnant, they've already started asking us about what we're going to do. It's so upsetting that I've asked DH to tell them to lay off.

Thing is, DH and I have known for a while that we would need to make a decision eventually, and we've had circular discussions but there's no easy answer.

We've tried for this baby for over a year and it's very much wanted. It's going to be hard enough have a newborn, without the stress about whether or not our own pet will harm it. Also (a more minor issue), our dog can be demanding and pushy. When he wants a walk or food, he will pace and whine, and drive you crackers. This behaviour when I'm sleep deprived with a screaming newborn is likely to push me over the edge.

DH is likely to have to pick up the dog walking for the majority of the time, as I cannot safely walk my dog and a buggy as I need two hands if an off lead dog approaches us (I might be able to cope with a sling, but still doesn't feel safe to carry a newborn and potentially deal with a dog spat). Getting a dog walker is not really an option, as our dog needs 1:1 care from someone who can handle him. I got this dog before DH came along, he's had a very difficult dog thrust on him which he wouldn't have chosen. DH does so well with our dog, but I know he does it for me.

I've tried to consider whether it would be realistic to keep the dog separate from baby during the day? Then let the dog out with us in the evenings? Once the baby has settled and is bigger there's a chance they could be introduced carefully.

Or can they? As I said, my dog is only scared of the unknown and very good when he trusts. The home he came to before is had 3 children under 10 and he was fine with them, but that was years ago. He has never shown aggression to a child, but then again we've never let him very near to them. He's a darling with us, and I do think he has the potential to be fine with our child who will be familiar and constant to him.

But how the hell do we ever find that out? Can I really actually try introducing dog and baby, or is it too risky? I feel like it might be irresponsible to even try.

He's a big strong dog. He occasionally jumps on us if he gets excited. He's heavy and his claws are sharp. He has hurt us both without meaning to. He could easily knock a toddler over, even if being friendly.

Thing is, I love my dog. Nightmare he is, but he's my nightmare and I'm responsible for him. I never wanted to be that person to turf out their pet because a baby turned up. My worries are genuinely to do with safety and whether this situation is manageable.

Thing is, even if we decide we can't do it, he would be impossible to rehome. There are thousands of perfectly nice dogs who can't find homes. My dog will be 8 years old, with aggression issues and also expensive seasonal allergies. Literally, no one would want him. I've had professionals say to be "he's lucky he has you, because I wouldn't put up with him!". I don't want to rehome him, but even if I decide to, I really think we would struggle to find him a home. He'd hate being stuck in kennels long term as he'd be so stressed, and I fear a rescue centre would simply put him down.

If we can't keep him, and no one will take him, the only other option would be to have him put to sleep - which is unthinkable.

I feel totally stuck between a rock and a hard place. DH and I have had this conversation so many times and never come up with an answer, because there isn't one! I think deep down I know it would be difficult, if not impossible, to manage such a situation safely. But I can't bear the idea of turfing out an elderly troubled dog and where on Earth would he go?!

So please be gentle. I'm pregnant, hormonal and ill, and I love my dog very much. So please be honest, but I can't handle a flaming right now.

OP posts:
Holldstock1 · 28/02/2017 17:38

OP, I haven't read all of the messages on here because there are alot! Please read this because I have details for you of a rescue who might be able to help, although I don't know where you are in the country.

I have 2 rescue dogs, 1 who is a Black Lab x GSD - 100% reliable, gentle and laid back (and has been the best dog I've ever had), and we got her when my boys were quite small as I didn't want them growing up frightened of dogs.

The other we got from the same rescue about 8 years ago when our first dog was about 8/9 for company. He's a Staffy x Greyhound (we think). He was just under a year when we got him, and had had a number of puppy foster homes before we took him. I think he probably wasn't socialized properly.

He is a great dog, he is not vicious, very good natured and a fanatic with balls, is dominated by our cat, wanders around with our chickens and is quite the comedian, but despite having given him a loving home, he has issues. He is very fearful and can be protective of the family and the home which means he challenges. He looks the business running up growling and barking, and while we know he wouldn't do anything - he just barks then runs away, other people who don't know him, don't realise that - I'd feel wary if he wasn't my dog and I didn't know his nature. Plus he's terrified of rain and thunder, so we've had problems. We wouldn't get rid of him for the world (despite him eating the boot of my last car, dislocating my knee by running into back of my leg - clumsy as partially sighted, and the thunder phobia). Most people would not put up with him (and so miss seeing his loveable nature). So I understand completely how you can have a dog with issues and love him.

But I didn't have a baby, or a toddler when we got him, and our children were 9 and 8 when we did and used to dogs. I seriously do not believe he would do anything (we would not have kept him if we did), but these types of problems are not easy to handle, and I don't think I could have managed him when I was a new mother with a baby.

I think realistically you know you won't manage this either. I understand the agony of your situation and the thought of either rehoming or putting your dog to sleep must be unbearable.

The rescue we got our dogs from do not PTS unless its medically for the best. I don't know if they still take dogs in (as they were retiring), but I do know that they still have some dogs still there. Look at their website.

They have taken in and kept dogs which are not re-homeable, due to injuries or physical conditions, or due to temperment - I know they had one dog there - a golden retriever who was surrendered to them by his family because he had alot of issues and had bitten basically everyone. This rescue took him in, and the family paid them for his upkeep.

They are amazing people who have dedicated their lives to helping dogs and they are very experienced with difficult dogs.

I don't know if they could help you OP, but I would suggest at least talking to them, they might be able to advise you even if they cannot take your dog themselves. The name of the rescue is Poplar Farm Kennels at Sutton Gault in Cambridgeshire. www.poplarfarmkennels.org.uk/

Good luck OP. I hope you find the right solution for your family and for your dog. Will be thinking of you all.

JessicaLeo1980 · 28/02/2017 17:34

I was terrified when I was pregnant with my first son. Our Jack Russell has seperation anxiety and I was really scared how he would react to a new baby. I thought he may be jealous and we would have to rehome him. I asked my other half to bring a blanket back from the hospital for him and when we arrived home we had our Jack on a lead and let him sniff the baby. From that moment on they were best friends. We now have a second baby which we did the same introduction with and our dog howls whenever he is crying to get my attention. We were lucky that they all get on but the early days were tough. There were days when we didn't have the energy to take a walk and it was easier for us as our Jack Russell is quite a small dog so he can be attached to the pram.
My advice would be to perhaps contact a rehoming centre and ask for advice? If they are a decent one they should be able to give you contact details of good dog behaviourists. Our dog can't be left for more than an hour on his own as he gets stressed so we have to work our life around him or drop him off at my parents house if we want to do things which is a bit of a pain but we have learnt to adapt. Our oldest son is constantly saying how much he loves dogs and it makes my heart melt as it was so tough at the beginning. There have been many times along the way that it would have been easier to give up and have our dog rehomed but he is part of the family and we wanted to see how he reacted before we did anything drastic.
See what a good dog behaviourist says and if they think there is no other option then you will have to think about rehoming him, but you may be surprised that he welcomes the baby as part of the pack. You'll always have to be careful and keep them apart when you're not in the room for safety but you'd have to do that with any dog.

IFinishedTheBiscuits · 28/02/2017 17:19

My parents had what sounds like a similar dog. (And we lived with them for three years when kids were 3 and 5.)
I think half the village breathed a sigh of relief when he died last year. He terrified people through the hedge and he hated other dogs.
However he was brilliant with kids and friendly with people once introduced. Never ever aggressive with people and kids' friends parents said they couldn't believe how affectionate he was considering his show of bravado at the gate.
But I never left kids alone with him, partly for his own protection so they wouldn't climb on him or put him in a position where he felt threatened.
He was bulldog cross Shar Pei so weighed about 6 stone. Actually he did go running for a ball once and knocked my toddler flat on his back - that is a risk with bigger dogs.
I don't envy you OP, it's a really difficult decision.

BaggyCheeks · 28/02/2017 16:53

But the wait and see approach, while normally fine, is a massive, massive, risk in this situation.
Realistically - the OP is going to be on mat leave, and at home. The dog will have to be segregated from an owner who he is used to receiving attention from constantly. How is that fair on the dog? Even stupid stuff like midwife and HV home visits will upset it - the OP's area is anything like mine, the midwife doesn't give you an appointment, they just turn up at any time in the first 10 days (unless you're discharged sooner).

silkybear · 28/02/2017 16:28

Would love to know if all the people saying keep the dog or see what happens would take their kids to a playdate at lemondrops house? I suspect not.

FaintlyBaffled · 28/02/2017 16:12

There's also a huge disconnect on this thread where people seem convinced that there will be hoarded of people willing to take on the dog.
As minipie points out upthread, the OP took him on at 8 months when there was still a chance (in her mind at least) that he would improve. At nearly 8 years and with his known issues, his chance of finding a home is slim to non existent and that's just how life is Sad

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2017 15:46

And, crucially, he won't know why it has changed Because he is a dog, and, contrary to some of be bollocks being spouted in this thread by so called animal lovers, he won't know the OP is pregnant, or understand that the baby is part of the family-because he's a dog

minipie · 28/02/2017 15:45

The OP knows that there are people that take on difficult dogs, she has done it! No, she took on a puppy expecting he would improve. People who take on 8 year old dogs with the issues she describes are vanishingly rare.

Those who are advocating a "try it and see" period are not, I think, considering the realities of that period.

The OP and her DP will have a newborn. They are likely to be exhausted. When you are exhausted, mistakes get made. In this case a mistake could be lethal. Even if no lethal mistake is made, it will be very stressful for all concerned - including the poor dog - and there is a high probability they will decide they have to PTS at the end of the trial period anyway. The chances of a miraculous turnaround where the dog becomes child safe are slim to none. Given that, I think it's far kinder and safer to PTS now without putting him through that stress and with the time and energy to devote to giving him the best ending you can.

Good luck with the decision OP.

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2017 15:43

But his life will have to change when the baby arrives.

Nancy91 · 28/02/2017 15:41

Vermillion I see your point, however I don't think the dog is in constant mental distress, by the way the OP talks about the dog I think she provides him with a nice life, he probably loves his toys, food, running around his field and getting fuss just like all other dogs. Just because he is reactive to new dogs / people it doesn't mean he has nothing in his life to live for.

Vermillioncomfyshoes · 28/02/2017 15:20

I think that as the dog is in no pain

Nobody knows that. Would you call mental distress pain? I would.

Nancy91 · 28/02/2017 15:16

I would expect her to wait until the baby is here and not kill the dog for something he has not done. Failing that, I would hope that she could advertise the dog for rehoming, whether that be through a rescue centre or not. The OP knows that there are people that take on difficult dogs, she has done it!

I think that as the dog is in no pain and he has not attacked anyone, he shouldn't be euthanised. He has a responsible owner who I strongly believe can manage him with positive training / muzzles if needed. Others may disagree but I couldn't read this thread and not say anything. Sad

OVienna · 28/02/2017 15:10

Would you have a person euthanised because they were easily frightened?

Read that back to yourself - What.The.Actual.Fuck are you talking about?

Spudlet · 28/02/2017 15:02

Because they think with their hearts before their heads, Bertrand. Not generally a good way to be around animals, ime.

dowhatnow · 28/02/2017 15:01

What does DH think?

You say he's been fantastic and stepped up to the plate while you've been sick these last few weeks. How will he feel doing this for the longer term? How will he feel missing out on the baby while he's tending the dog because you are feeding , knackered etc?
If he agrees because he wants you to be happy, then it won't be long before frustration or resentment kicks in. He's got to be on board 100% for the massive adjustments you would have to make to keep the baby and dog separate. From what you've said he's doing it for you rather than because he wants to.
You have to balance the needs and wishes of the dog, yourself, the baby and also your DH.

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2017 15:00

Of course it matters, among other things, that this is a large breed!

Why are people so stupid??????

BaggyCheeks · 28/02/2017 14:52

Nancy91 It matters in this case that the dog is a large breed because of everything the OP has said about it's temperament. Of course all dogs are unpredictable, but in this case you have a dog who:

  • Can't be exercised around other people or dogs - requires two hands to handle safely.
  • The owners have to hire a field to run him in
  • Has a poor prey drive
  • Shows no warning signs (growling, haunches) before lunging
  • Has had thousands of pounds and countless hours spent with behaviourists, vets and training to minimal effect.
  • Is also a large guard breed with poor breeding and poor early socialisation.
  • Would have been put down with his litter mate at 8 months old had the OP not intervened 7 or so years ago.

How much more would you expect the OP to reasonably do? This dog, for it's breed type, is now elderly and isn't going to change. Everything is an "If", and highly likely to cause the animal stress. There isn't a grey area for how things will go. Either the dog won't be bothered by the baby or the dog will go for the baby at some point. That's not to say the OP doesn't love her dog - it's obvious that she does from her posts. But keeping a dog alive at any cost and against it's comparable quality of life isn't showing it love.

sj257 · 28/02/2017 14:38

I had to rehome my dog while pregnant. Thankfully she was young and a lovely little dog, issue was just she needed more training and time than we could give her and I was worried that she would become naughty when the baby arrived. It broke my heart but now the baby is here I know 100% that I did the right thing, I would never have coped with her and it wouldn't have been fair on her. My baby has cried and needed feeding or holding all day today and is unsettled every evening, it'd be impossible for you to see to your dog if your baby was like this. Could you take him to a rescue then the final decision is out of your hands so to speak? I'm sorry you are having to deal with this x

Nancy91 · 28/02/2017 14:30

It doesn't matter that the dog is a large breed, many large breeds are extremely trainable and many small dogs are stubborn and snappy. I have had rescue dogs from GSDs to chihuahua crosses and I can tell you ALL dogs can be unpredictable. Does that mean nobody should have a dog and a child in the same house?

Also the example above regarding the dog killing a sheep, that is the prey instinct - but dogs are domesticated to live with humans and have been for quite some time. People also kill and eat sheep you know.

Why should this healthy dog be put to sleep? Would you have a person euthanised because they were easily frightened?

I think if the OP put the dog to sleep she would regret it and always wonder if the dog would have accepted the baby. I would wait and see how the dog reacts to the baby and if he seems stressed I would endeavour to rehome him. There are people that would adopt a dog like this and he still has years in him yet to adapt to a new family.

yellowfrog · 28/02/2017 14:30

Lemondrop09 - my heart goes out to you. You are clearly a fantastic, caring and highly-experienced dog owner, and facing a horribly difficult decision.

I think the things to bear in mind are that animals don't foresee death. If you chose to have your dog PTS, he will not know that it's coming, he won't dread the event or agonise over the missed future in the way a human would, and he won't suffer. He will just be here one day, and not the next.

Rehoming him will at the minimum cause him a period of stress and uncertainty. If you know someone who you trust will give him a happy and secure future, then this unhappy time might be worth it for the long-term outcome. However, if you can't pass him directly to another home you trust, you risk the entire rest of his life being one of stress and uncertainty (if any rescue organization would even consider him, which I suspect most won't). Given how you clearly care about your dog, I can't see the latter being a realistic option.

If you choose to keep him, you know the risks and the difficulties that lie ahead. In your position I too would be horribly torn, but I think, like you, I would be feeling deep down that keeping him isn't the best option. The muzzle idea is a possibility though - only you know your dog enough to know if this would be bearable for him while at the same time able to mitigate any risk he may pose to your baby.

I am sure that you will chose the best and safest option, because you have clearly managed to do just that for him for all the years you have owned him. If that choice is to PTS, console yourself with knowing how long and happy a life you have given him that he would never have had otherwise.

Unicorn34 · 28/02/2017 14:29

ALL animals can be unpredictable, some more than others obviously. The most vicious dog I have ever known is a friend's Jack Russell, evil little shit. You cannot leave any baby alone with ANY animal, its just common sense. A baby could be viciously mauled, or smothered lovingly by a cat - the same outcome. OP, this is your call and I can understand why this is so difficult. Your dog may protect this baby as part of its pack, or it may not... this is the difficult part. You must do what is best for YOUR family. Training at this point with a crying doll (one of the "live ones" that cries at night) may be a good way of finding out how he reacts to just the noise? So sorry you are having to make this choice. Good luck

fenneltea · 28/02/2017 13:52

Nancy -I'm sure the dog does have loving traits, most dogs do, but you can't let that override the fact that this is a large breed that can be unpredictable. A dog that had just savaged our sheep came up to us with a wagging tail and wonderfully friendly. He'd still killed though.
The owner will be tired, have less time and attention for what is a needy and time consuming dog, and having dealt with fear aggressive large dogs it can be scary and you need to be alert and on top form all the time.
The only person that can make a rational decision on all this is the owner, with professional advice as she knows the dog best, I wouldn't be passing the dog on to anywhere, for his own sake.

prettywhiteguitar · 28/02/2017 13:39

When my ds was 6 months old I was so sleep deprived I drove past ikea 4 times. People make mistakes, it will be a very stressful time for you with your first baby and having your dog there will be very stressful and dangerous.

As someone has mentioned before you have kept a dog which could have been a danger to others, dogs and children, which has been managed by you very well. But you have another all consuming life coming up that needs you and unless your husband is totally on board I really don't think it's fair on him or your new baby to keep your dog.

harrietm87 · 28/02/2017 13:35

nancy the OP has described it as a very large dog with an enhanced prey instinct that lunges without warning. The OP and her DH find walking it stressful because of the potential of its aggression. It gets impatient when it doesn't get what it wants. The OPs DH doesn't like looking after it alone. Isn't that enough for you? Would you let your baby live with a dog like this?

Fingalswave · 28/02/2017 13:32

Knitting I would hold the same view in these sorts of situations generally. But this is not a small terrier, its a large guard dog cross breed, 40 kg, that lunges without warning. It has to be muzzled and restrained whilst out walking; it wouldn't be able to be walked with a pram and children. And if I remember correctly, the op has already tried dog-walkers without success.

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