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Original poster

Rock and a hard place - My dog and new baby

707 replies

Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 10:29

Perhaps AIBU is the wrong place to post this, as people can be very scathing. Please be honest but gentle with me!

Sorry this is so long.....

I rescued my dog over 7 years ago, when he was 8 months old. He'll be 8 years old in a few months time. He is a large cross breed (two guard breeds) and weighs over 40kg. He was poorly bred and poorly socialised and has been mentally screwed up by his bad start. He had multiple homes in his short life before coming to us. He did not go through a proper rescue centre and if he had a proper behavioural assessment, I strongly suspect he would have been put down. He would not have been rehomable - not because he's excessively aggressive, but few rescues will home dogs with even the slightest aggression.

His aggression is fear based. He's scared of strangers and other dogs. If properly introduced to a person or another dog, he's fine. In fact, he's a total baby and as soon as you have his trust, he'll love you forever. We spent so much time and money over the years on behaviourists, trainers and socialisation classes. He improved a lot, but he will always be difficult. We always walk him on lead and usually muzzled (as a precaution, he's never actually bitten anyone, the muzzle in more in case of other dogs) and actively avoid other dogs on walks. Walking him is stressful, but we mostly get out and back without incident. We do not bother introducing him to any people he does not need to know, instead we usually shut him away when we have visitors. However if we have overnight guests, he can be successfully introduced with a bit of time and lots of sausage!

Ok, so here's the main issue. When I got him seven years ago, I was not remotely thinking about children and had also expected an 8 month old puppy to turn into a normal dog with enough effort. I underestimated how much genetics would play and that he would never be normal. I thought I could turn him around completely. I couldn't,

I am now pregnant with our first child, although it's early days. It's been a very hard time as I've had hypermesis gravardium and have been (and still am) very unwell. I haven't got out of bed in weeks, and DH is working full time, running the household and sorting out dog. We normally split the dog walking (as Neither of us enjoy doing it due to stress) but he's done it every single day without complaining, even though I know it makes him miserable. I feel awful about it.

Both my SILs and MIL have never had any time for our dog. They aren't animal people and can't forgive him for his issues. As such, we have never introduced him to them. I find them quick to judge him and they all clearly think we should simply get rid of him. Now I'm pregnant, they've already started asking us about what we're going to do. It's so upsetting that I've asked DH to tell them to lay off.

Thing is, DH and I have known for a while that we would need to make a decision eventually, and we've had circular discussions but there's no easy answer.

We've tried for this baby for over a year and it's very much wanted. It's going to be hard enough have a newborn, without the stress about whether or not our own pet will harm it. Also (a more minor issue), our dog can be demanding and pushy. When he wants a walk or food, he will pace and whine, and drive you crackers. This behaviour when I'm sleep deprived with a screaming newborn is likely to push me over the edge.

DH is likely to have to pick up the dog walking for the majority of the time, as I cannot safely walk my dog and a buggy as I need two hands if an off lead dog approaches us (I might be able to cope with a sling, but still doesn't feel safe to carry a newborn and potentially deal with a dog spat). Getting a dog walker is not really an option, as our dog needs 1:1 care from someone who can handle him. I got this dog before DH came along, he's had a very difficult dog thrust on him which he wouldn't have chosen. DH does so well with our dog, but I know he does it for me.

I've tried to consider whether it would be realistic to keep the dog separate from baby during the day? Then let the dog out with us in the evenings? Once the baby has settled and is bigger there's a chance they could be introduced carefully.

Or can they? As I said, my dog is only scared of the unknown and very good when he trusts. The home he came to before is had 3 children under 10 and he was fine with them, but that was years ago. He has never shown aggression to a child, but then again we've never let him very near to them. He's a darling with us, and I do think he has the potential to be fine with our child who will be familiar and constant to him.

But how the hell do we ever find that out? Can I really actually try introducing dog and baby, or is it too risky? I feel like it might be irresponsible to even try.

He's a big strong dog. He occasionally jumps on us if he gets excited. He's heavy and his claws are sharp. He has hurt us both without meaning to. He could easily knock a toddler over, even if being friendly.

Thing is, I love my dog. Nightmare he is, but he's my nightmare and I'm responsible for him. I never wanted to be that person to turf out their pet because a baby turned up. My worries are genuinely to do with safety and whether this situation is manageable.

Thing is, even if we decide we can't do it, he would be impossible to rehome. There are thousands of perfectly nice dogs who can't find homes. My dog will be 8 years old, with aggression issues and also expensive seasonal allergies. Literally, no one would want him. I've had professionals say to be "he's lucky he has you, because I wouldn't put up with him!". I don't want to rehome him, but even if I decide to, I really think we would struggle to find him a home. He'd hate being stuck in kennels long term as he'd be so stressed, and I fear a rescue centre would simply put him down.

If we can't keep him, and no one will take him, the only other option would be to have him put to sleep - which is unthinkable.

I feel totally stuck between a rock and a hard place. DH and I have had this conversation so many times and never come up with an answer, because there isn't one! I think deep down I know it would be difficult, if not impossible, to manage such a situation safely. But I can't bear the idea of turfing out an elderly troubled dog and where on Earth would he go?!

So please be gentle. I'm pregnant, hormonal and ill, and I love my dog very much. So please be honest, but I can't handle a flaming right now.

OP posts:
bunnylove99 · 26/02/2017 18:40

OP your commitment in looking after your wayward dog all these years is commendable. I think you must now let him go. Your baby is far too precious to allow such an unnecessary risk to its life in your home (which is exactly what this is). It will of course be upsetting but perhaps not as upsetting as you think as your whole life us about to change with the arrival of your baby.

BertrandRussell · 26/02/2017 18:29

"I think she has made two irreconcilable commitments when she should only have made one at a time"

She's had this dog for 8 years. Are you saying that she should have waited until the dog died before starting a family???

BeaderBird · 26/02/2017 18:28

Have the dog put down. Honestly, once the baby is here you will feel very differently. I have a slightly iffy dog - nothing like yours even and recently brought my brand new baby home from the hospital. It sounds incredibly extreme but we have just built an extension in our house for the PIL to live in - although there are several benefits to this arrangement my ONLY motivation was the fact that the dog would go in and live next door with them. We have him through with us in the evening and if the baby is sleeping up in her carrycot on the high stand we have.

Had I not been able to do this, I would have been taking my dog to have him put down and that dog has been my life/baby for ten years. 7 of those years we tried for this baby.

There is no chance to be taken - the minute your baby is born it will become clear and you will see that you can not keep that dog.

CivicBlue1 · 26/02/2017 18:26

Haven't rtft so apologies if someone has already suggested this, try contacting the a breed specific rescue. If he's a cross, try both breeds. Explain everything to them. Please don't tell them what you think they want to hear. They may be able to help. In most cases they will assess the dog, the dog goes into a foster home and is then rehomed, in most cases to someone who has been home check by the rescue.
Just type the breed followed by rescue Scotland/England/Wales eg. German shepherd rescue Scotland.

Trifleorbust · 26/02/2017 18:25

HerBluebiro: I don't think she is trying to get rid of her dog because of the inconvenience. I think she has made two irreconcilable commitments when she should only have made one at a time. Yes, the first commitment was a little naive, but so now is the second one because she didn't give it due consideration beforehand and is only asking now she is pregnant. So whilst I feel sorry for her, I can't approach this with the same degree of sympathy as some on the thread. I hope it works out for her though as she sounds like a nice lady.

mummymeister · 26/02/2017 18:16

OP I have been reading this thread. what I would say is that you have a lot of good ideas about how to safely introduce the baby to the dog. all of these are ideas that you have thought about carefully and could easily put into practice now.

but "now" is not the same situation as you will be in when you have your baby. you have no idea of the crushing tiredness and the ease with which a mistake can be made because of it. forgetting to shut the door, being distracted, running downstairs quickly to grab something.

honestly until I had my first I thought all this "so tired you cant think " stuff was utter bollocks and that I was going to be different. I wasn't. I like everyone else have done some really stupid things due to tiredness.

you already know that your dog has issues. if you already had your baby (and no dog) and you saw that this dog wanted rehoming would you rehome? if the answer is no then really putting the two of them together will massively increase your stress levels and put your baby at an entirely avoidable risk.

Vegansnake · 26/02/2017 18:08

What an awful dilemma 💐...hugs xox ..be kind to yourself..you have given him 8 yrs of life ,that with out you fighting his corner ,he probably wouldn't of had..xx

Cantusethatname · 26/02/2017 17:59

You sound lovely and committed.
However you only have to scan the news over the past year for terrible, so terrible you can hardly bear to think about them, stories about dogs and babies.
You know you can't keep this dog. No one will judge you for making that decision. I would, however, judge someone who chose to keep a dangerous and aggressive dog around a baby. If I met you at baby classes and knew you had that dog I would never visit your house.
You know, and we all know, that you cannot keep this dog.

archersfan22 · 26/02/2017 17:59

The not putting a healthy dog down message gets on my nerves. While lovely in theory, what it means in practice is that they either:
a) refuse to take on dogs like this one who are not sensible rehoming candidates
b) define 'healthy' as both mentally/behaviourally and physically
and/or
c) have dogs sitting in kennels for years on end.

They don't have a magic solution to rehoming dogs with serious aggression problems. Mild behaviour problems they will no doubt do their best to address, but this dog's problems are not mild, despite the very best efforts of a very committed owner and her various trainers etc.

rightsaidfrederickII · 26/02/2017 17:46

I've only read the first two pages and the last one, but I can see that OP is very committed to her dog.

However, I can't see that you have the option to keep both the baby and the dog in the same house.

While I do think (with a heavy heart) that PTS has to be one of the options on the table, I would suggest speaking to the Dogs' Trust to see if they could offer anything - they do advertise that they never put a healthy dog down, and while there's not much detail on their website, this does provide a little more illumination www.twitlonger.com/show/j0gf2k

TartyTart · 26/02/2017 17:37

This sounds like a really tough situation but i would the dog to sleep. Rehousing just passes the problem to someone else who may face their own issues in time - children, disability. The kindest thing must be to let him go..

HerBluebiro · 26/02/2017 17:21

Trifle yes a lot of this dog's behavior is down to op.

The positive fact that he can be introduced to people eventually. That he can be walked that op knows his triggers and minimises exposure to them.

So she was naive as a 20 year old. Thought she could turn this dog around. In your view she should therefore never have children? You are being ridiculous. This is a very different situation from someone taking on a dog and getting rid for inconvenience a couple of years later.

I just wish every dog owner put in as much thought when they went on to have a child.

Op it seems that if anyone could possibly combine a dangerous dog and a child it would be someone like you. Do you want to take that risk?

DistanceCall · 26/02/2017 17:12

to those saying they think people who value other animals over humans (we are animals too remember) are sociopaths... nope I'd say they just don't believe humans are superior to other animals. We got lucky evolutionwise but we're not special, nor are we worth more than any of the other species on earth, or in the universe...

Really? You don't think that a child's life has a greater value than that of a shrimp? (Or a gorilla's. Or a dog's).

silkybear · 26/02/2017 17:08

You barely have time to shower or feed yourself with a newborn, how would your dog feel about this massive change in attention? You have given him a wonderful life and tried hard but I would PTS before baby comes, no question. It is kinder imho to do it now rather than him spend his final years being moved to other rooms and sidelined or even worse going to live somewhere unfamiliar. When you hold your new baby the need to protect them is so hugely overwhelming, the idea of having a potentially aggressive and jealous animal in the house would be too much for me. You sound like a lovely owner and have clearly been responsible and loving, so it's not a 'just for xmas' situation but choosing to do the right thing to protect your child. Good luck OP.

Original poster
Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 17:01

Just to clarify, I would expect the baby gates to be a short-ish term thing. I would not want to be in a position to keep dog and child separate for 2,3,4 years. If the dog hadn't settled by then, we'd need to look st other options. I'm thinking more for an adjustment period and safe introductions (if we go that way). I think long term segregation would be miserable for all involved and impractical. If the dog didn't appear to be coming around to the baby pretty sharpish, or was reacting very badly, then I wouldn't want to pursue it long term. The separation would really be more to assess how the dog was reacting to the change and to manage a slow introduction.

Having a dog trainer who knows my dog say she thinks it could work, has made me give the matter serious consideration. But I have far from made up my mind yet. Even if it worked, it would be a very stressful period to get there. There is no easy answer

OP posts:
Blackfellpony · 26/02/2017 16:56

You could be me a year ago OP.

My dog is fear aggressive, no socialisation and is generally an idiot.

It's worked out okay for me in that he is fine with the baby and literally ignores him however it's been a nightmare to get a routine in place where everyone is safe and under control. We use stairgates and have to be on alert all of the time even though the dog hasn't ever shown any signs of being uncomfortable I still don't trust him 100%.

I wouldn't hesitate to PTS in your (or my!) situation if it got to the point you couldn't cope and I wouldn't feel guilty either.

fenneltea · 26/02/2017 16:55

You seem to want this to work OP, understandably, but remember that it is easy to underestimate just how tired you can be and sometimes it can be hard to find the time to make a meal for yourself with a newborn, let alone supervise a dog continuously. I also don't think crating or shutting away for excessive periods of time is fair.

I really hope it works out for you all, though.

Haffdonga · 26/02/2017 16:55

Again I would say the stair-gate option may work (with a lot of hassle) for a year or two. As soon as you have a clever and mobile 2, 3 or 4 year old who can open gates and doors but who is not dog aware and safety conscious you have a potential disaster.

Original poster
Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 16:52

Again, thank you everyone. It's all been helpful. I have discussed the matter with the dog trainer, I will talk to the vet and also the kennels he stays at. Lots to think about and I won't be rushing the decision. Thank you

OP posts:
Original poster
Lemondrop09 · 26/02/2017 16:39

Archers, good points which I've been thinking about. He doesn't jump babygates. Of course, that's not to say he can't, but he doesn't normally do it. I'm not sure it's ever occurred to him to try. There is the option of stacked babygates that I've seen, where you have two in a doorway. Faffy, but they can't be jumped. Would also put extra precautions in place in the beginning if actively introducing, like muzzle, harness, lead and two adults present. Other options include a dog crate (which he's had in the past and was happy with). We can physically lock our old fashioned doors with keys so they can't be opening accidentally.

OP posts:
Writerwannabe83 · 26/02/2017 16:38

You really can't risk this OP. I see a few times you've mentioned you don't want to get rid of your dog for being an inconvenience but he's not an inconvenience, he's a danger. With each post of yours that you add the more anxious it makes me feel. You are taking a huge risk with a babies life.

And as another poster said, keeping a non-mobile baby and a dog separate is easy but when that baby starts crawling, walking and wanting to harass the dog it's a whole other matter. I think children get more threatening to pets the older they get.

I can't recall how long you said is left until the baby is born but I would give your dog some wonderful months and then make the right and safest decision to have him PTS.

You've clearly given him such a wonderful life and you clearly love him very much but he will not be safe around babies or children.

PossumInAPearTree · 26/02/2017 16:35

It's not the baby stage I'd be worried about but the toddler stage. You say dog is 40kg and lunges when scared by something? So noisy, unpredictable toddler does not sound like a good mix with the dog. When he lunges what happens? Does he stop himself or do you see him lunging and stop him?

I had a fear aggressive dog and after two years of trying to sort him had him pts. It is upsetting to put a young healthy dog to sleep. But I do think for a dog it's not the worst thing that can happen. Especially a fearful dog. If I'd tried to get a rescue to take him (unlikely) he'd have been terrified, wondering where I the only person he trusted in the world had gone. Chances aren't he would have ended up been pts by a rescue anyway and not rehomed and I would rather have done it myself as at least I wasn't there with him. I'd like to think he didn't know what was happening and just thought it was an injection?

I have since read an article about the Dogs Trust and that they have a special section at one of their places for unrehomeable dogs where the dogs will stay.p for ever. Don't know whether that's something worth considering?

archersfan22 · 26/02/2017 16:32

OP, just one other thought though I expect you've thought of it already as you seem to be very safety-conscious: I would be wary of relying on baby gates with a 40kg dog with aggression issues - also watch for him being able to open internal doors in the house as many large dogs can.

And for anyone who hasn't read the full thread: this is really not a typical 'pet gets the boot because of new baby' situation, it is very clear that the OP is extremely committed and dedicated to her dog, way above and beyond what the average owner would have done.

MajorSharpesButtons · 26/02/2017 16:30

As a HCP who has seen the aftermath of this situation going wrong I'm going to be utterly blunt.
Dead baby or dead dog?
Mutilated baby or dead dog?
Both of those are pretty feasible outcomes of this situation. Don't do it.

SleightOfMind · 26/02/2017 16:24

Firstly congrats on your pregnancy OP.

None of my dogs have been fear aggressive towards people, but 2 were extremely high prey drive.
They were all absolutely fine with newborns after careful introductions and adored the children.

There are loads of things you can do to desensitise your dog to the changes a newborn will bring.
Even the gentlest dog wouldn't be left with a baby so the separating etc is something we all have to do. It just becomes habit.

By the time baby is mobile, your dog will either have adopted them into the pack, or will clearly have issues.

I'd be giving your lovely dog a chance if I were you. Extreme supervision is a given between any dog and a new baby. You'll soon know if there's going to be a problem.

As for walking him, I'd practise walking him alongside the pram before baby arrives. You may have to switch to road walks only so you're not ambushed by offlead dogs but, as pp have said, he should start to slow down a bit.
How much exercise does he need per day?