To think an English teacher should know the correct pronunciation of Glamis?

oh I totally agree Bogburglar I was just trying to show how maybe we could cut this teacher some slack as really we don't know how Shakespeare meant things to be said and that one miss pronunciation doesn't mean they are a rubbish teacher.

I'm not so sure I did 'settle' it, but thanks hackmum!

Bog - I love this stuff from your granny. I had heard of saying 'the Scottish play' but not superstitions against quoting altogether! I do sort of love that stuff in theatrical lore, and especially the idea that it was properly cursed by some real witches, either for nicking their cooking pot or for nicking their words, or for portraying them in a less-than-attractive way. I don't care that it is totally fabricated; it is one of those lovely stories that is too wonderful not to believe.

However, I imagine all this aversion to quotation makes writing a paper on the subject a bit of a mare! Do you simply avoid all references that aren't line numbers?!

There are an increasing number of Original Pronounciation productions of Shakespeare which reproduce how the language would have sounded when the plays were written. Ben Crystal's company specialise in these, an example here if anyone is interested.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=qYiYd9RcK5M

I love the fact that this thread has continued for several pages after holly settled the matter conclusively. All very enjoyable and educational, though.

I actually think, fwiw, that Shakespeare works much better when pronounced in a regional accent, such as Yorkshire or Brummie. It's easier to understand, somehow, as well as (possibly) being more authentic.

*mrsbartlett but in the first line of the famous Lady M soliloquy he'd have to be messing with the metre by using the one syllable version. It needs two syllables to be a perfect pentameter but one syllable slows it down and emphasises the first words.

holly you are right and whats more, the line of Banquos you quote is bloody difficult to say with a single syllable. Try it (I can't, my granny's ghost will haunt me ). Two syllables and it flows, one syllable and you get a horrible hiatus in between the last two words. Which S sometimes does for effect but I am not sure this is one of those times. I suspect he just didn't give two hoots.

Completely agree with posters pointing out that we have little to no proof of how Shakespeare pronounced anything, his spelling was 'creative' and he probably had little first hand knowledge of Scotland.

Mmm.... this may have been mentioned already but Shakespeare screwed with the metre all the time. Not saying he did with the whole Glamis pronunciation argument that's going on here but anyone who knows Shakespeare knows this. So is it possible the teacher, who has never been taught the text themselves or seen it performed, thought that is what Shakespeare is doing to draw attention to it?
Think about Hamlet's most famous line 'to be or not to be; that is the question' if Shakespeare was sticking to his metre solidly at all times this line wouldn't exist.

Know of course - the irony! Hoist by my own potato.

YANBU ideally teacher should know, like Chuka Umunna should now where Worcester is and how to pronounce it -

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28150247

Jeanne - I tell you I'm supposed to work and you tell me about Academics' Corner. HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO RESIST THIS NEW DEVILISH TEMPTATION?!!

sneaks off to have a look

Compos - that's more like it!!

opens book

Oops, that would be girls' school.

I played Jaques in my (American) high school's production of As You Like It. I was most definitely Jay-Kweez. I can still do the all the world's a stage speech.

(It was a girl's school. I'm tall. I always got men's parts.)

Yes, v late back to this, but I don't recall a "bad quarto" on either Greg or Pollard's lists. The shorter quarto is probably more "authorial", if that's what we're equating to good here, at least since the Folio appears to have additions by Middleton in the songs and the Hecate scenes (aptly for this conversation bcos they're in a drastically different metre.) Could be wrong, of course.

YANBU. I would expect someone teaching English at Secondary school level to be able to pronounce Glamis correctly. The fact the teacher couldn't would make me wonder just how well the class was being taught.

Do some fucking work holly - does that help?

You know about the Academics' Corner? Someone will yell at you there.

I need some kind of supervisor who will yell at me to get on with it. My cat just isn't tough enough.

Good luck with 'actual research'.

Jeanne - Yes, I think an accurate summary would be "Actually, the more I look at it the less I seem to be certain which way it was said, but it doesn't seem clear-cut and I'm not even sure you can make a confident metrical argument". Which seems to be where I end up a LOT these days . (This may just be me wussing out).

Looking at other instances... Banquo's ghost addressing Macbeth for instance... just seems to muddy it further!

I am also mindful of the fact that this really, really doesn't matter that much and I should really be getting on with actual research rather than letting myself procrastinate wildly like this.

Have not read the full thread but people suggesting that pronouncing glamis as 2 syllables messed up the metre are barking. If you pay attention you'll realise that not all of Shakespeare's pentameters are perfect 10 syllables iambics - he stuck in extra unstressed syllables all the time! It's totally common to find 2 unstressed syllables as the first half of an 'iambus' - including in lines quoted to show that this is supposedly impossible!

holly, I agree with your scansion and also thought there wasn't a Bad Quarto version, but like you, I'm not sure because it's out of my period.

I suspect the metre issue isn't that Banquo is saying it one way and the witches another, or anything like that, but simply that the metre isn't a good guide to the pronunciation because Shakespeare isn't precise enough with metre. Which is what you were arguing right out, wasn't it?

[ However, any English teacher would know that pronouncing Glamis as 2 syllables would upset the metre. But then, if they've never read/seen Hamlet then how would they know that?]

Good point, Thane of Denmark probably mumbled it...

I could be totally wrong about this - it is not my area of specialism - but I thought Macbeth was notorious for having very few textual sources - the first folio being the copy text for most editions??

I have Folio 1 (1623) and Folio 2 (New South Wales) open. I'm hoping I've transcribed these correctly and not totally cocked it up as is my normal practice with quotes.

Folio 1:

Act 1, Scene 3
Mac. Speake if you can: what are you?

1. All haile Macbeth, haile to thee Thane of Glamis.
2. All haile Macbeth, haile to thee Thane of Cawdor.

Macb. Stay you imperfect Speakers, tell me more:
By Sinells death, I know I am Thane of Glamis,
But how, of Cawdor? the Thane of Cawdor liues

Act 2, Scene 2
Macb. Still it cry'd, Sleepe no more to all the House:
Glamis hath murther'd Sleepe, and therefore Cawdor
Shall sleepe no more: Macbeth shall sleepe no more.

Act 3, Scene 1
Enter Banquo.
Banq. Thou hast it now, King, Cawdor, Glamis, all,

Folio 2:

Act 1, Scene 3
Mac. Speake if you can: what are you?

1. All haile Macbeth, haile to thee Thane of Glamis
2. All haile Macbeth, haile to thee Thane of Cawdor.

Macb. Stay you imperfect Speakers, tell me more:
By Sinells death, I know I am Thane of Glamis,
But how, of Cawdor? the Thane of Cawdor lives

Act 2, Scene 2
Macb. Methought I heard a voyce cry, sleepe no more:
Macbeth does murther Sleepe, the innocent sleepe

Act 3, Scene 1
Enter Banquo.
Banq. Thou hast it now, King, Cawdor, Glamis, all,

Now meter was never my strong suit (and nor is this my period) but the witches in 1.3 and the passage in 2.2 scans with a double syllable, right? (Macbeth substituted for Glamis)??

As PPs have said, it is a bit loose and maybe less conclusive than I had thought looking at it... hmmmmm. Interested in thoughts?

I think a teacher teaching Macbeth should be able to pronounce it properly.

If it was someone just reading the place name, then not necessarily. I, for example, totally ballsed up 'Alnwick' the first time I said it.