To protest at the words "Jewish" and "Israeli" being used interchangeabley.

OP I agree that being Israeli and being Jewish are not the same thing, obviously.

I find that most people confuse Israeli with Zionist.

However, anyone that uses religious grounds as justification for oppressing people and murdering children is fucking disgusting and I'll reserve my sympathy for the Palestinians. I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm pro human rights.

I also think religion is stupid, but that's neither here nor there.

wine bringing up China is like a child directing their parent's attention to a sibling being naughty when they have been caught doing something bad. Yes, shit is happening all over the world. That doesn't make what's happening to the Palestinians okay, and it certainly doesn't mean that we don't care about Taiwan because we care about what Israel have done ffs.

As for crying 'Hamas! 'Hamas!' When Israel or Zionism is criticised, which came first? IIRC the UN has basically said that Israel acted illegally by firing at schools. Just because Hamas used a school to store weapons, do you think that makes it okay to kill some children?

Atenco
So yes I hate Zionists and I'm sure Zionists hate me.

So you hate anyone who supports a Jewish homeland (which is the definition of Zionism)? Wow. That's a lot of hatred.

I'm pretty sure most Zionists don't hate you though. Have you done anything to think they do?

That's right Sam.

You can be Zionist (ie support the right of the Jewish people to their own country) and support separation of religion from the state.

That's the platform of the political party 'Meretz', for example, which is both zionist and strongly secular.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meretz

TTWK - this wouldn't make the "secular Jews" you are referring to anti-Israel, any more than calling for the disestablishment of the CofE would make someone anti-British. No-one would call them self-hating. The founders of Israel weren't at all religious, and Jewish law does not apply to criminal matters, which is why, eg, abortion and homosexuality are legal.

TTWK I said being anti the jewish state (anti-Israel/anti-Zionist) is a anti-Semitic. Not liking the Israeli govt isn't anti-Semitic. Not everybody is a fan of Netanyahu but you can still be a fan of Israel! It's like supporting Britain's right to exist but not supporting the Conservatives. Don't put words into my mouth.

But many Jews are supporters of a secular Israel. They do not support a Jewish State. They do not believe a nation should have a state religion. They are in favour of the American model, where the 1st amendment guarantees a wall of separation between church (or mosque or synagogue) and state.

Jews who hold this view are not self haters, or anti semitic. They just don't happen to have the same view as you.

Also, many non practising Jews or liberal Jews do not feel comfortable in Israel, nor is it a place where they feel at home. Hardly surprising as there are areas in Israel populated by orthodox Jews where is you attempt to drive thru on a Sabbath, your car is stoned. There is also a lot of prejudice against extremely orthodox Jews by liberal Jews, who resent their refusal to do national service along with other grievances against them.

The situation is far from as clear cut as you make out.

And calling someone a 'hasbara troll' for expressing points of view different to your own is bullying and intimidating behavior.

No, Israeli and Jewish are not the same thing at all. You're quite right OP.

It IS anti-semitic to conflate the two. Jews are entitled to a variety of positions on Israel and its policies as anyone else and there is a wide spectrum of opinions within the Jewish community - and within Israel itself of course.

Of course it's not anti semitic to criticize Israel and its policies. However, there's no doubt that SOME of the criticism, especially much of the hyperbole and exaggeration, is motivated by anti-semitism. In the UK I think it's the deep anti-semitism within parts of the Muslim community (which is particularly sad since there should really be common cause with the Jewish community) and the loony left such as the hatred of Jews seen coming from the likes of George Galloway and Ken Livingstone.

I also think that a tinge of anti-semitism motivates the obsession with Israel and the hypocrisy involved. There are many awful things happening within the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but there are far worse things happening throughout the world which people/communities who are very vocal about the Palestinian cause stay strangely silent about. But as someone who cares deeply about both Israelis and Palestinians for personal reasons I'm OK with this. Hypocritical it may be but hypocrites can still be right and the constant interest in Israel pushes the Israeli government (and maybe Palestinians?) to greater restraint than maybe we'd see otherwise so I can live with that, as long as the criticism itself is fair and correct.

Take for example the holocaust terminology already raised here by another poster. That's anti-semitic in my opinion. The Israelis and Palestinians have been doing horrible things to one another for over a century now but thankfully haven't yet reached the levels of the holocaust. Killing lots of people is not genocide. It may be a war crime and it is certainly unacceptable but it's not genocide. Using the term genocide is anti-semitic hyperbole (or ignorance). And it's counter-productive. It just makes Israelis see the world as them and us and more likely to dismiss any criticism, even if justified.

And just a point regarding zionism and the right of the Jewish people to self determination. It's not just about religion. It wasn't about religion during the holocaust, you couldn't just convert to christianity and all would be OK. The Jews are also a people. And just like, say, the Kurdish movement for a homeland, zionism is the Jewish movement for a homeland and self determination. Zionism itself has plenty of room to live peacefully with the Palestinians. Whether Zionism is necessary in today's world is a question but there's no doubt that if Israel had existed in just ten years previously, there'd be a whole lot more Jews in the world today. Of course, Palestinians also have a right to self-determination and to their own country. It's the fact that both the Palestinians and Israelis have legitimate claims and grievances which has caused this conflict to be so intractable for so long.

Israel is the only country in the Middle East where any feminist or anybody who supports democracy could possibly live. Israel has changed history- Jews have gone from being pushed around, chased from country to country to having a homeland and a damn successful one at that. People don't know what to do now Israel is here to protect the vulnerable. As for being a hasbara troll FFs! I, and most of my friends, regularly holiday in Israel and yes we even take our kids! Why is that so unbelievable?! The Palestinians have had many chances for peace but each time they have refused it. Hamas tortured it's own people during operation protective edge and you're saying Israel is the wrong doer?!

TTWK I said being anti the jewish state (anti-Israel/anti-Zionist) is a anti-Semitic. Not liking the Israeli govt isn't anti-Semitic. Not everybody is a fan of Netanyahu but you can still be a fan of Israel! It's like supporting Britain's right to exist but not supporting the Conservatives. Don't put words into my mouth.

I didn't see where Wineisfine said that anyone criticising the Israeli govt is an anti-semite. Could you point me to it?

SamG76, below is what Wineisfine said. To me, that reads as a clear accusation of anti-Semitism against critics of Israel.

Anybody who says 'I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm anti-Zionist' is as pathetic as the people who 'I'm not racist because I have a black friend'. I would love to know why people who constantly criticise Israel aren't more concerned about what China does in Taiwan, the child sex exploitation market in India and the treatment of foreign workers in Dubai. I suppose they were all washing their hair the night those petitions were sent round... Of course people don't care because it doesn't involve Jews so they can't air their lazy anti-Semitism! But Israel is a convenient and socially acceptable way to do so. And it comes from all sections of society, from Muslims with anti-western views to left wing 'right on' types. Anti-semitism sadly lives on and taking an anti-Israel stance is how it's now portrayed.

Nope, that's not what the WHO found. I suspect you're not really interested though.

George Yeats - equipment was probably stolen by Hamas officials. See below from the PA...

www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=745439

samG76 medicines aren't subject to an overt blockade, but according to the WHO the blockade has had a severe impact on medical equipment in Gaza.

TTWK - I didn't see where Wineisfine said that anyone criticising the Israeli govt is an anti-semite. Could you point me to it?

Nor is it Israeli govt policy, because if it was, the leader of the opposition (unlike most of the surrounding countries there is an opposition leader who isn't in prison or under sentence of death) would be constantly accused of it.

Also I am British, but I was anti the 2003 invasion of Iraq and anti the way migrants in Calais are being treated. I don't equate Israeli with Israeli foreign policy or Palestinan with Hamas even if both are elected representatives.

I genuinely don't care if someone is Jewish, Muslim, Christian whatever. We're all people. I would never want any person or group of people to die, what a strange accusation to make against anyone., especially someone who just has a different viewpoint to you.

Clearly Gaza is a mess. Clearly Jewisj children having to have a shelter in a playground is a mess.

I don't know when or how it's going to be solved. The bombing needs to stop on both sides. I don't know anyone who would even understand how someone could be anti-Semitic. I don't notice someone's religion as a difference really. But I don't think Israel is doing everything to achieve peace. I don't think Its always being just.

Hamas is labelled a terrorist group, aren't they? Surely they receive less opprobrium because it goes without saying that they do some pretty shitty things. The Israeli government is not labelled a terrorist group. Presumably that's why their negative actions get greater scrutiny.

It's terrible antisemitsm is still a thing - really bloody terrible and weird but please don't think that the majority of those who criticise Israel's treatment of Gaza do it as a result of antisemitism, I really don't think that is the case at all.

Nobody claims that anyone who dislikes the Israeli govt is an anti-semite.

The Israeli government do, and so did Winesfine on this very thread.

Handsup - even if that story is true, and it seems to be based on pretty dodgy evidence, infant mortality it fell continuously during 45 years of Israeli military occupation, while life expectancy shot up. Mortality still lower than, and life expectancy higher than both Jordan and Egypt, which aren't under occupation at all.

And medicines aren't subject to any blockade. Still, why spoil a good story with the facts?

deliberate hyperbole about genocide when there are more Palestinians then ever

The Gaza infant mortality rate has reported to have risen for the first time in half a century according to the UN. This is as suspected a result of the Israeli blockade.

However for the record OP I don't equate jews = Israel and I can understand your frustration.

"talk about genocide, when there are more Palestinians than there have ever been"

Not for lack of killing. Palestinians have one of the highest fertility rates in the world.

YANBU

dehumanisation of Jews and Israelis (eg "I hate Zionists")
Actually there are a lot of Christian and Atheist zionists and as can be seen in this very thread a lot of Jews and Israelis who do not support the Israeli government.

Zionism is an ideology that adults adopt, not the same as a race, nationality or religion in that sense. So yes I hate Zionists and I'm sure Zionists hate me.

Nobody claims that anyone who dislikes the Israeli govt is an anti-semite. This would include a large proportion of Israelis. But of course there are a number of anti-semites around. In a similar way, not everyone who criticises immigration is a racist, but quite a few of them are.

So how does one tell the difference? It is obviously not a scientific thing. With immigration, one can look at the tone of the discussion, whether immigrants are dehumanised, whether there are suggestions of some sort of conspiracy, ludicrous generalisations and exaggerations, etc etc. Note than someone saying "I'm not a racist" isn't conclusive, and some might draw the opposite conclusion

Similarly, with criticism of Israel one can look for anti-semitic stereotypes, dehumanisation of Jews and Israelis (eg "I hate Zionists") and deliberate hyperbole (eg talk about genocide, when there are more Palestinians than there have ever been). Again, someone saying "I'm not an anti-semite" doesn't really help.

The only person on this thread who has equated isreal and jew is winels. It serves a perpose to say anyone who disagrees with isreal is a jew hater including Jews (self hating). That purpose is to shut down honest and open debate which helps to maintain the status quo.
Some classic examples of hasbara trolling.
It's all Egypt fault.
Why don't Palestinians go back to Jordan
They started it
All out naighbours hate us and want to destroy all Jews
We need isreal to be safe and I even send my kids on holiday there.
What about China?
We are nice to gay people
We are democratic gaza is not
The people of gaza voted for hamas.
They started it.

YANBU OP. Lots of very ignorant people out there unfortunately :(.