To protest at the words "Jewish" and "Israeli" being used interchangeabley.

Or alternatively maybe Israel will be glad that there isn't a Palestinian State whcih has become an ISIS stronghold on their doorstep?

All the years I supported Israel retreating from the Golan Heights in exchange for peace with Syria. Given what's happened in Syria since then.I admit I'm glad there was no peace deal and that Israel still holds the Golan Heights. And so are the Syrian Druze who live there.

Who knows what will happen in the future?

sam I don't think Israel is illegitimate at all - for exactly the reasons you mention. I think it is just a stretch not to accept that that the way it came into being will have caused some tension.

The history of Silesea I'm not getting into here. My mother's family are (ironically) from Silesea and I have heard all the arguements and counter-arguements about what was and should have been done, and what was fair or not. Let's just say that lots of the world's wars and injustices have been caused by imperial ambitions.

I agree some sort of land sharing arrangement is the fairest and in fact the only reasonable way forward, I just don't think it will happen. Both Israeli's and Palestinians may come to rue the years that they did not make peace if ISIS takes a perminent hold in the region.

Yeah but the thing is, Sam, Israel wasn't handed anything on a silver platter. The Arabs rejected the 1947 partition plan and opened war on the Jewish community. Then, with the declaration of statehood in 1948, all the Arab countries invaded Israel which ended up an absolute catastrophe for the Palestinians. But this is not a case of the colonial powers 'giving' land to Israel.

worridmum

This is the exact hyperbole and hypocrisy that I referred to earlier.

No, Israel isn't as bad as Serbia. In fact, the human rights abuses in the century long Israeli-Palestinian/Jewish-Arab (pre-1948) conflict have never reached the absolute lows of the Balkan war. Yes, there are abuses but nowhere near as bad as many that are going on in the world right now (not a justification for any that do happen but just a point in fact).

Iran has slaughtered its Sunni minority, hangs children and many others for the most outlandish reasons, funds and supports hezbolla as well as the Assad regime in Syria, oppresses its LGBT community - yet here is someone coming on and supporting the Iranian regime. That's quite unbelievable. You must really hate Israel to do that.

And no, the peace deals offered were not along the lines of colonial America (WTF?). The Palestinians were offered all of Gaza, most of WB (with settlement blocs annexed to Israel and land swaps within Israel to make up for it), shared control over Temple Mount/Haram El Sharif and Jerusalem neighbourhood (depending on whether it's the 2000 or 2008 rejected peace deals - or even the 1947 UN partition plan).

The Palestinians have rejected the opportunity for statehood THREE times. Each time they've said no, they want all their claims met. It's hard for Israel haters, so blinded by their hatred of Israel, to accept that the Palestinians may have fucked up here and that sometimes Israel is OK.

And, no, this is not a justification for all that happens with the occupation. The settlements shouldn't be there at all. But in the absence of a viable Palestinian state, should there just be a vacuum to be filled by ISIS?

barbarianmum

Britain never gave Israel anything. Britain wanted out desperately after WW2 and handed the problem over to the UN. The UN agreed a partition plan in 1947. The Jews (not Israelis at this point since Israel didn't exist) accepted, the Arabs didn't. You say it wasn't theirs to give away? So whose was it? Both Arabs and Jews have legitimate claims to the land (unless you want to start the who was here first argument?). That's why sharing it seems to be the fairest way.

Barbarianmum - when you "grabbed some land", lots of countries, probably a majority of them, are based on some sort of colonial carve-up. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc, and that's just in the vicinity of Israel. Are you saying that all these countries are illegitimate?

Clearly the British were more likely to support Zionist aspirations after WWII given that the Jews supposed the allies, while the Palestinian leader supported the Nazis. A lots of territory was handed over on that basis, eg Silesia, South Tyrol, etc. Were these all land grabs as well?

If nothing else I would have hoped the events of the last 25 years have taught us that you can't force democracy, mutual tolerance and happiness on people by bombing them And that when it comes to the Middle East, the UK doesn't have all the answers....

because lets not kid ourselves Irseal is a ROGUE state it completly ignores UN mandates actully has Nukes, bombs civilians, steals land belonging to another state, imposaes harsh sanctions illigaly upon a entire people etc I could keep going on for the crimes of Irseal but because it has the undying support of the USA it will never be labeled rightly a ROGUE state.

Where in contrast Iran is LABELED a rogue state but has not done any of these things and just because its not best mates with the world super power is labeled a rogue state

I dont get why we dont give ireseal the same treatment they treat both the West bank and Gaza how come we dont impose massive sancations upon iriseal and actully FORCE it to negoation a peace in good faith and by that I mean remove its illigal settlements which have been condemned by the entire UN (even the USA) but apprently Iresral is allowed to flawnt international law but not labeled a rogue state like North Korea and Iran (even tho iran has not even broken half the laws iresil has but is harishly punished by the world)

The current prime minister has basically come out and said their will never be peace during his rule as he does not belive in a palistine state and contines to increase in number the illigeal settlements etc.

We bloody well bombed seriba for FAR FAR less than what israel gets away with (while I do not condone a bomibng campgain against isreal I support a total boycot of irsaelli goods until the government actully gets down to serious peace talks even if we have to impose Gaza level sanactions upon them so be it)

And from wine the so called offered "peace" were along the same bloody lines that were offered to native americans during the colonail period where they said we will stop killing you if you move to these shit resivations etc)

the Israelis have not provoked any actions against them except by being Jewish.

Except:

• grab some land (yes I know the British agreed but it was hardly theirs to give away)

• dispossess some of its inhabitants

-killed a lot some people who objected

and so on.

the Israelis have not provoked any actions against them except by being Jewish.

The Israelis aren't Jewish, they are Israeli. Many are Jewish, plenty are not.
That's the point of the OP's initial post!

Lastuser you mean isreali children? Not just Jewish? You have done what most on this thread have agreed is unreasonable by conflating the two.
Carol they are provoking a reaction by being an occupying force.

Carol, that's a pretty distorted version of history and I have a lot of sympathy for the Israeli narrative.

Yes, Palestinians rejected partition plan in 1947 (and things go back further with the rejection of the Peel partition plan in the 1920s and the Arab rebellion in the 1930s). Yes, Arab states invaded in 1948, expecting an easy victory. Yes, Jordan and Egypt held the WB and Gaza respectively between 1948 and 1967 and never established a Palestinian state.

But Israel has done A LOT of nasty shit as well. OK, it's not a very nice neighbourhood but much of it isn't justified. I don't think it helps to make Israel out to be blameless (just like the Palestinians aren't either).

Some History:

What is now Israel and Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire until 1918
It then became a British mandate until c1945
The British then put the decision to the UN to decide what to do with the land and the displaced Jewish population in Europe as well as the Jews who had travelled there prior to 1945.
The UN agreed a partition plan for 14 May 1948, which the Jewish agreed to, setting up the borders and Jerusalem to be controlled by the UN. The Arab world did not like this and there was fighting on and off between 1945 and 1948.
On 15 May 1948, Eygpt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq invaded the territory with a desire to 'drive the Jews into the sea'
A cease fire was declared in 1949 with the green line borders, with Eygpt controlling the Gaza strip and Jordan holding the west bank and east Jerusalem. The Arab League refused to allow Palestinians citizenship in other Arab countries .
Israel gets continually attacked by Palestinians until 1967, when Jordan, Eygpt, Syria and Iraq in the 6 day war, in which Israel expanded into the occupied territories.
PLO is founded and becomes a terrorist organisation to attack and destroy the Jews
In 1973, Eygpt and Syria attack again, and lose again.
Since then, the various terrorist organisations, supported by Arab nations, have continued to attack Israel in the name of killing all Jews, not just to get back land.

So, unless we accept that the UN mandate of 1948 was wrong, the Israelis have not provoked any actions against them except by being Jewish. The fact they are stronger than their enemies does not make them the bad guy.

PTSD: and jewish children too, by the missile strikes. I have a friend with 5 kids in Israel and they seem to get them a lot judging by her FB updates.

YANBU. I would go one step further and criticise the actions of the Israeli government when unreasonable, not 'Israel' as a whole.

Unfortunately, I see things going downhill, not very optimistic for any resolution.

Israeli Jews are more right-wing and less sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, there is a shift from democracy to nationalism and settlements are more entrenched meaning that the two-state solution is even less likely. Even for Israelis opposed to settlements, it's far easier to sit and sip an espresso in Tel Aviv than have to deal with the chaos being spread across the West Bank. The situation is being 'contained' and it's all too easy to forget about it across the green line when you're busy living your own life.

On the Palestinian side, the further rise of Islamic extremism and spread of Islamic State mean that the likelihood of a viable Palestinian State is even more remote. If it were just an issue of Hamas in Gaza, I think things could have eventually been worked out (just like the PLO moved away from terror, you can see a softening of Hamas positions) but Hamas are no longer considered radical, there are far more extreme groups to deal with.

And frankly disgusting.

If the Palestinians just stopped resisting occupation land theft and blockade peace would prevail in the ME?
There are actions on both sides that are abhorrent but that some people including some on this thread would try to justify the indiscriminate killing and oppression of innocent t women and children is just so shocking to me.

part of the problem is both populations are traumatized. trauma changes the brain.

I really wouldn't be surprised if PTSD was rampant.

I agree Ego, and forgiveness.

Calloh

I think you just summed up the whole Israeli/Palestinian conflict!

I hate the race to the bottom with which side is worse. It goes around and around. Sometimes it's the Palestinians, sometimes the Israelis. Both sides have legitimate claims and legitimate grievances. And both sides aren't very nice to one another in an endless cycle of cause and consequence.

There is more onus on the Israelis as the more powerful side but the Palestinians are also actors in their own right, capable of making pretty awful decisions as they often do.