To protest at the words "Jewish" and "Israeli" being used interchangeabley.

It's extremely easy to go to the WB. It's also safe for a tourist. I'd recommend it too. There are amazing places to see as well.

Gaza is another story. I wouldn't recommend going there. It's very chaotic and not safe.

It's not that what happens in the WB and Gaza isn't wrong. It's not that the Palestinian cause isn't justified.

But my point is that the interest in and outrage about Israel is way disproportionate to the level of human rights abuses or human suffering. The fact that it is so accessible and that you CAN easily and safely go as a tourist is testament to that.

Ego, of course it isn't easy to visit. Israel doesn't want the world to see what it does.

It was a life changing trip for me, literally changed my whole perspective.

How many people on this thread have visited Palestine? Have seen it for themselves? What the Palestinians go through every day, the way they are treated....it is horrific. And the vast majority of the violence and terror and hararrssment that they experience every day is ignored by the world's media.

Yes, I am outraged by Isarel, because I have seen it, in all its cruelty. I strongly urge everyone I know to visit, make your own mind up.

Sorry that should say 'not saying that Arabs AREN'T capable of civilised behaviour'

Sam

No, it's not saying that Arabs are capable of civilised behavior. But Israeli human rights standards ARE higher than those of all Arab societies surrounding them. I think this is to be celebrated, it's a good thing. Of course Israel should respond to attacks but a) has to be held to the standards of modern warfare in western democracies and b) shouldn't attack just to do something but only if it will actually change the situation - we're back to square one in Gaza and just waiting for the next round - so what did the nearly 2000 Palestinian deaths actually achieve?

Egos

I think most democracies - if faced with the same conditions as Israel - would behave much the same in terms of the military. Britain and the US did some awful stuff in Iraq and Afghanistan when faced with militants hiding among a civilian population. Look at the terrible abuses of Britain in Kenya and France in Algeria just 50 years ago in the 1960s. Compared to what the French did in Algeria, Israel is extremely restrained and France was separated from Algeria by the Med, in Israel it's all much closer to home (this is not a justification - just context - I don't want Israel to be like France in Algeria!) .

The problem is political, it's the occupation and conflict. But both sides are responsible for the failure of the peace process and the opportunity to end the occupation and conflict.

The Palestinians are the main victims and underdog in this conflict, no doubt. But their victimhood doesn't mean that they aren't also significant actors who also influence the events.

Ego - your post at 15.11 appears quite orientalist and imperialist to me. You seem to expect Arabs to behave badly, but "civilized" Israel should behave better. And what happens when the Israelis face rocket fire? Should they just grin and bear it for fear of upsetting Western "liberals"? Sounds like a recipe for disaster.....

Egos - I can accept that reasoning and agree with it somewhat. I hope it explains much of the disproportionate interest in Israel - but I think it's only a partial explanation.

Atenco - I disagree with the impunity reasoning. Britain gives billions to countries who do far worse than Israel like Pakistan for example.

Purpleturtles - talking about 'the depths of depravity' is an example of the hyperbole and hypocrisy I'm referring to. Israel isn't 'the depths of depravity' but a country involved in a complex conflict which has involved abuses on both sides. I could come up with hundreds of examples of Palestinian depravity but I don't think the Palestinians or the State of Palestine is depraved. Very unhelpful but typical of Israel haters.

Handsup - there's a huge amount of criticism of Netanyahu within Israel and among the wider Jewish community, it's certainly not anti-semitic to do so.

I don't think that's what Carol is referring to.

Israel's justice minister calls for the destruction of Palestinian mothers and their "little snakes". This is coming from a supposedly civilised country's now 'justice' minister. Killing children is not the action of a 'civilised' country.
setting children alight is not the action of a civilised nation. Restricting calorie intake of those in Gaza is not a civilised measure to take. Caging innocents in an open air prison is not civilised. The level of depravity reached by Netanyahu and his cronies has reached a new depth. Do not create a new apartheid state, it is most certainly not civilised.

carol One thing is for sure, I will never be in fear of criticizing Netanyahu but by continuing to call me and others anti Semitic for doing so - the definition will eventually lose it's currency which no one wants.

And while people may be appalled by what else is happening in the world, a disproportionate amount of outrage and censure is reserved for Israel

I think the problem is impunity.

Both the US and the UK refuse to ever sanction Israel, whereas with other outrages around the world, sanctions are put in place and the government in question is criticised on mainstream media. However when it comes to Israel we have listen to the media, such as the BBC justifying the bombardment of schools, trying to make it sound like there are two equal sides, equally responsible and equally suffering.

Such a 21st century debate...

Look at the map of the middle east and see how little Israel contributes to the area.

Look at the history of the region, especially with regard to Britain and the USA.

Israel is almost irrelevant in the context of the middle east let alone the world yet it's past and it's current sponsors (USA) give it a prominence far in excess of its actual relevance.

It is so because people are anti-semitic. They do not like Jews. They can argue as much as they like, but fundamentally they are like people who say 'I am not racist because I know a balck person' or 'how can I be misogynistic as I love my mum'.

It is equally disingenuous to claim that because some (I'd say even much or most) of the criticism is justified, that some isn't motivated by anti-semitism.

The two are mirror images of one another. The fact that anti-semitism drives some of the criticism of Israel makes it possible for those who wish to deflect any criticism to call it anti-semitic.

I've seen both.

And while people may be appalled by what else is happening in the world, a disproportionate amount of outrage and censure is reserved for Israel. Like, I said, not necessarily a bad thing for Israel but why is it so?

Many do complain & are appalled by injustices in other parts of the world yet when the spotlight is on Israel, the anti Semitism get of jail free card is used which I feel is disingenuous.

handsup

it's far more than that though. If it's the UK giving money then perhaps this graphic will help (Israeli doesn't get a penny)
www.theguardian.com/global-development/datablog/2012/sep/26/uk-aid-money-key-datasets

Giving money and aid is certainly not based on human rights, there are many countries getting billions of pounds of British money with far more dismal human rights than Israel like Pakistan, Rwanda, Burma, Nigeria and Sudan. Israel looks like Mother Theresa in comparison to that motley crew.

Although I don't think the censure and focus on Israel is a bad thing for Israel, I think it's helpful in the long run even if Israel doesn't like it. I like to think the constant focus on Israel is because Israel is a Western liberal democracy and should thus be held to those standards but sometimes I smell a hefty dose of hypocrisy and in some cases a nasty whiff of anti-semitism which motivates singling Israel out among all the other nasty things going on in the world.

patapouf

It doesn't contradict the OP in the slightest, completely supports it. In what way does it contradict it?

I don't think every ethnic German is a German national. And I don't think every German national is an ethnic German.

It's the same as Israeli and Jew which is what the OP said.

Don't forget that you be of Jewish origin without practicing Judaism.

And the fact that Israel is the Jewish national homeland doesn't mean that every Jew must support it or rush there. Some Jews might not want a national homeland (many ultra-orthodox are anti-zionist). Others may support the idea but not the practice.

Judaism is the dominant religion of the Jewish people and most people who practice Judaism are of Jewish origin, just like most people who practice Hinduism are of Indian origin. But you can most certainly be ethnically Jewish and not practice Judaism. And you can also practice Judaism and not be ethnically Jewish. The Jewish religion and the Jewish people, while closely related, are not the same thing (which does make things complicated!).

In fact, the original proponents of Zionism such as Theodor Herzl were secular Jews (he considered himself an atheist).

Yes I'm aware Saudi are our allies and like the Israeli government I believe the monarch are scumbags too (and I get the opportunity to say that without being labelled Islamophobic unlike Israel where I'll be labelled anti Semitic)

The UK arms supply maybe irrelevant to you but I remain disgusted with the fact we continue to arm.

Handsup = Saudi Arabia is a close ally of the UK. It has been bombing civilian areas in Yemen for months, with huge civilian casualties, without anyone being especially bothered. This supports Homehelpme's theory.

The UK's arms supply to Israel is pretty irrelevant. There was a time when it was significant, but after we imposed an embargo, the Israelis set up their own weapons industry, which is now a world leader.

As for Western aid to the Israelis, it's only the US that provides it, and most of it is credit to buy US goods.

homehelpme referring back to your post regarding less outrage at the deaths of Syrian children - Israel is a close ally of the west; Syria is not and unlike Israel, Syria receives no western aid and have had many abassadors expelled.
The fact the UK also supply's arms to Israel (which will/ has contributed to children being blown up) makes the whole thing seem even more grubbier.