To wonder if a lot of people who are Christians have had a rather nice life?

I have had a really nice life so far (there have been a few dodgy moments but overall), I don't have any faith. I don't consider myself an atheist because I find that so many atheists are passionate about it whereas my lack of belief is pure apathy, I don't believe and I don't care.

Jollier ! Follies, perhaps, but so what.

Mad, sorry to hear. Yes, I know what it's like on a noisy ward.

I got comfort.from getting some of the chapllains round. It had a domino effect on the rest of the ward. We had the c of e, rc ,Buddhist monk.

The ward became a much follies place.

Op, I think it can seem like it, partly through eg your experience at university and thereafter, partly the way the church is portrayed in the media, vicar of dibley, anyone, partly that the cofe used to be described as the Tory party at prayer, back in the days when.

But that ignores, as others have said

Wealth dies not protect you from tragedy. Think of that poor family where the mother has been charged with murder of her three smallest. I have no idea whether they profess any religion, but the point is that an apparently materially well off position is not necessarily happy making.

That there are a lot of v comfy atheists around. And with no imperative to give alms to the poor, they could well be comfier !

The Pentecostal churches are growing hugely. Many of their people are the reverse of comfortable.

The work of the London City Mission is with the poor and outcast, in particular.

The RC church has supported the cause if the poor in this country since Manning and Wiseman.

Justin Welby has been mentioned; he has declared concern about usury, especially affecting the poor.

And, anecdotally, I can tell you that the social profile of the congregation of the church I go to has altered a lot over the last few years. Fewer wealthy people, more multi ethnic people mostly English but some recent immigrants.

I would not presume to judge the individual state if any body's spirituality.

Finally, on faith. I think it can be a bit like falling in love and then going into a partnership. You have the first uprush followed by the honeymoon period.

It's then a slog for many people to keep going. If you expect that uprush of feeling constantly, you are almost bouind to be disappointed. You have to accept doubt as part of it, probably, and just continue, using the disciplines you have built up during the first rush of emotion.

Some people are very fortunate and have that inner conviction and joy all their lives.

Many don't.

The two best descriptions of those who don't imv come from writers who might not have had very much to say to each other, CSLewis in The Screwtape Letters, and St Therese of Lisieux.

I find it like an onion, many layered. I have layers if doubt layers of belief. They are often at war. And I go through phases too. I don't think it is unusual.

I wish I knew more about it, but since it's so confidential all I know is that they run the sessions. They must be successful, though, or there wouldn't be continued membership.

I wish the Church were more inclusive in general, but I keep hoping we'll get there.

Well, we always have the announcements after the 2nd hymn otherwise someone will have a meltdown. The sunday school (held in the afternoon, not at the same time as the morning service) is made up of about 60% children and 40% adults with learning difficulties. Feel free to PM me if you want anymore info and hope you get out of hospital soon.

Would really like to hear more about that as well LRD. Inclusive church - what I long for to be the case always.

I don't know where you went to church OP with all these nice-looking young people (sounds lovey but not like our church!) The church I attend has lots of old people, people living on their own, people with learning disabilities, people who are disabled and can only attend by taxi/if they can get a lift and also a group of people who are now settled here but were asylum seekers. I think it is fair to say we are a motley crew. Even those who look 'ordinary' and like they have a nice life, many of them have endured a lot of suffering and difficulties, such as suicide, cancer, the death of a child and so on. We are missing nice young people though, so if anything we would love some of them to come along too.

I think perhaps you were musing on your own faith and it came over a bit wrong. I don't think you necessarily meant anything by it- and you are right to the extent that if you have an awful thing happen, your faith can waver or you can lose it, this is not unusual. I always think of that triple jumper Jonathan Edwards who was a Christian and apparently he lost his faith, although I don't know if that was in relation to anything in particular.

mad, a church I used to go to runs sessions for AA, if that's relevant? At the time they said something like 80% of AA meetings happen on church property. If that's true, it'd suggest a lot of inclusivity.

Thanks LRD

Ellie, your church sounds like what church should be. Welcome and inclusive for all, and doing it in such a way that people want to be there. I'd love to hear more about how it supports people with autism and carers etc as I am doing some research on enabling churches at the moment.

DH and I were raised in Christian households and are still Christian. We have been through 2 miscarriages. One of our children is disabled, another has 2 severe medical conditions. DH works full time in a not much over min wage job while I gave up my career to look after our children. It's not all roses.

Also in our church:
15% suffer from depression
20% have autism
15% are carers

Oh, then best of luck for the next few days. It sounds rotten, I'm sorry.

Thanks LRD - am ok. You're helping me merely by posting interesting things on MN at midnight when I can't sleep due to Noisy Patients and buzzing drips. I am doing alright - only in another 5 or 6 days now.

Not sure where the random bumf came from there

princess you want to pop over to the philosophy and religion board for some jolly bumf bunfights of the type you describe

madhair, I'm sorry to hear that. Anything we can do?

Bloody phone. You get the idea, anyway.

The average Anglican person is not a white middle class male as you might expect, but rather an woman from an African country in her early thirties. Hardly a life of privilege.

I know plenty of my Christians as you describe. Loads of them went to university and we're much like the vast majority of uni students. I also know loads of Christians who have had the most difficult of lives. I lived my teenage years in a very deprived area (think in top ten most deprived in the country at the time) -my dad was a vicar and dragged us there ;) I saw many, many people living in dire circumstances come to faith and stay faith. You may look at some of them now Nd think they are privileged and even mc, because their lives look different now.

Not that bad things have stopped happening but that their faith has transformed their outlooks, often from despair to hope.

Most Christians in the world are in poverty, a good amount are persecuted and there are a good Humber of British and American Christians who look like a good number of British and American people. Ie mc, white, privileged.

I am white and university educated, not particularly privileged financially (only compared to my friends in the DRC for eg ) and my life has by no means been free from pain and struggle. I am typing this from a hospital bed which I know well due to a lifetime of pain and degenerative disease. My faith isn't about merely a prop or comfort, though it does those things to some extent. It's a bit life changing hope in and despite my circumstances, about transformative relationship with God, about something that makes a huge difference to the everyday, not simply for the Great By and By.

Hope you're able to see op that you are taking a tiny sample and applying it across the board.

No, I've met plenty of poor, wacky and uneducated Christians. Their life has not been easy by any standard. I've also known middle-class Christians who have had to deal with significant issues in their lives despite a veneer of wealth.

mrsmat - I don't leave the organisation out of it because, for me, Christianity is inherently communal. To me, that's what communion is. I accept it be different for you - but that's why I put it like that.

I think that's actually got a lot to do with the whole issue. Christ died for us - not just the ones who have the right pat phrases, or even the ones who are secure in their faith. He also died for the Doubting Thomases. That's the point.

near - I just wanted to say, your post is brave. I know it would be crass to pretend I had anything to say about it, but for me it sums it up.

This is probably the most tame religious thread I have come across on the internet. I'm kind of shocked it hasn't derailed into a thread of salvation and who goes to hell.

I think I hitch congregations vary area to area. One church maybe located in a deprived area and support vulnerable adults, another church can be niiicely village located and have a rather jolly flock for the reverend to care for.

Interesting, AKeyFox. I like what you did there . I wonder what it is then, which predisposes someone to faith. Dawkins talks about it doesn't he, the possible Darwinian reasons behind the success of religion through the ages?

at YellowTulips no3

I know both Christaisn who have been Christians all their lives and had easy lives. And those who become Christian after something devastating happens to them.

Although there are exceptions, the people I know who have had many multiple awful things happen to them over their life, tend to not be Christian, even though they may have been in the past. It must be difficult to sustain a faith if year after year more awful things happen to you.

FWIW, it's a Catholic school and its management which have ruined my life - whilst praying for me, naturally...