To NOT want my husband to have a makeover and dress as a woman?

Tiggy it depends what it is. If something is a deal breaker, I don't think it matters how long it is has been. DH and I agreed a compromise on something 20 years ago and it is just as important now as it was then. It hasn't always been easy but that's how relationships are.

If the OP's DH is saying "I thought I could accept that but actually I can't" that's one thing. It doesn't sound like that though. It sounds like he's pushing little by little to get her to accept more and more while downplaying or denying what he's doing.

crisps the reason why women wear "men's clothes" is that they are practical and comfortable unlike a lot of women's clothes that are designed for the male gaze rather than the comfort of the wearer (a strip of lace between the bum cheeks? no thanks). The women who broke down those barriers for us were derided by society at the time. But women don't really dress in men's clothes. I never see women at work wearing a shirt and tie. I liked wearing a tie at school and I like the look but it would be more than "just clothes" for me to wear one now. Women who really do dress in a way that is gender non-conforming still face disapproval and judgement, called ugly dykes etc.

The fashion in men's clothes has been more androgynous in the past than it is at the moment (e.g. 1970s) and no doubt will be more so again at some point in the future. I married a man in a skirt and he looked damn fine in it. If men want to wear skirts, dresses, makeup, nail polish, whatever, great, I'm all for gender non-conformity. It's a different thing though when you ask a partner to accept something they don't want. People obviously make accommodations for their partners. I've asked my DH not to buy Jeremy Clarkson jeans or red trousers and he's asked me not to wear military style jackets that make me look like a Russian shot putter. That's just clothes. Passing yourself off as a member of the opposite sex is not just clothes.

The compromise they agreed on was from 20 years ago. People change. Have you stuck to everything you decided to do 20 years ago?

Sorry, I have not read the entire thread so hope this isnt repetitive at all, or breaks into an ongoing conversation.

It is interesting how it seems "wrong" for men to dress in "women's clothes" whereas society allows women to dress in "mens clothes" I.e. trousers, the trend for womens underwear to be shaped similar to boxers (I remember this as a trend when I was at school. All the girls were going mad for 'girls boxers' from Topshop)

The clothes we should wear are decided by society. Of course, back in the day, the difference in mens and womens clothing was more determined. Remember the fight for women to wear trousers! And now it is fashionable and "cool" to appear androgynous.

Just trying to say that clothes are clothes :) if a personality changes, that is a different problem! You say your dh is a good man. Well, a good man can wear a skirt! Just like a good woman can wear trousers!

Mumsnet folk like to say colours are for everyone, pink for girls and blue for boys is just gender segregation. Isnt this a similar example, just for clothes?

Annie it seems like they did reach a compromise. The OP asked him not to involve her and gave him space to dress up when she was out. He seems to have pushed this further including having sex while wearing her underwear and now involving her in his makeover. That's why I called it gaslighting - the creeping erosion of the compromise the OP was willing to accept. She is worried about where this might lead which is not surprising given that her husband has not respected the compromise they reached.

This is only cruelty and repression if the OP puts her boundaries second to her husband's.

Well Thants aside from the fact I'd never describe anyone as "hot" Andrew is rather beautiful. He struck me as being androgynous and beautiful in the way say Johnny Depp, or Tilda Swinton are or before they became fat and bald, Adam Ant and Boy George were.

I see from his blog that he mentions adrogyny as something very important to him.

A lot of his clothes are also either stage wear or stagey, explosions in the dressing up box ( a look which I wholeheartedly approve of on either sex). Keeping his arms bare also works, there are firm, masculine, heavily tattooed arms which contrast with the feminine clothes.

I note he refers to femininity in his blog, so possibility he wouldn't agree with you that dresses are not feminine.
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OP YANBU, in my opinion. I actually don't think there is a right or a wrong here.

Your DH may not be able to help his need to cross dress, and should be free to do whatever he wants. BUT if you don't want to be a part of it, then I think he should respect that and he doesn't have any more right to make you unhappy by forcing this on you, than you have to force him to stop.

BTW- I don't think the OP forced him into suppressing this for the last 20 years. She stated the terms on which she could tolerate the secret he kept from her- he chose to stay on those terms. He could have refused. And it seems like the OP has tolerated it to some extent- going out so he could cross dress without her there, making love to him while he was wearing her underwear and so on. I don't think that's entirely "forcing him to hide this aspect of himself".

To those posters saying "well I don't have a problem with it"- that's fine, but the poster does feel uncomfortable with it and has said that she finds it a turn off. She can try and work through that, if she wants to. If she cannot overcome her feelings, then I don't think there is any shame in that.

I wouldn't be comfortable with this, and I would find it a complete turn off from a sexual point of view. I also would not like the fact that he wanted to go out dressed as a woman and be chatted up by men (even if it was only for the attention)- just as I wouldn't be happy if he was thrilled to be going out to bars and chatting up women "just to enjoy the flirting" while dressed as a man- even if he had no intention of taking it further.

OP, I think you need to have a careful think about what you can live with and what is a deal breaker for you. You need to ask your husband to do the same. Then you need to sit down and have a discussion with your husband regarding some common ground, if there is any, and where you go from here.

I have been with my DP for 22 years. I think lots of women make far too many accommodations to keep a marriage together. OP's DP doesn't seem to be making any accommodations.

"At the risk of being even more shallow, most ordinary blokes look terrible in a dress, so why wear one?"

You should probably ask a crossdresser that question.

Shame that Andrew is into Black Magic (occult) not choccies!

I think it is part of our survival instinct to instantly judge people when first meeting them.
I annoy myself by doing it, but it is a natural instinct.

I don't think I would make a judgement about you.
And personally I think Andrew (in the blog I linked) looks hot.

Orlando Woolf you're right, it's very far from being the end of the world, but I think most of us might need help to deal with it.

°Thants* I am a very shallow person. I care a lot about clothes. I have an idiosyncratic style, although I admit, nothing which would cause raised eyebrows(other than very occasionally on work team bonding casual days, I don't do casual, I wouldn't be seen dead in jeans and trainers)

If you met me you could choose to " reject how you are socialised" . I suspect you would make certain assumptions, most of which would be correct.

As I said I'm very shallow, what I wear is very important to me and I get a lot of compliments about my clothes.

At the risk of being even more shallow, most ordinary blokes look terrible in a dress, so why wear one?

genderspastic.wordpress.com

This blog could be of use. It's written by Andrew O'neil. He is a heterosexual, transvestite stand up comedian. He is a talented and inspiring person and his wife is proud of who he is.

Thants: I accept your ideology, but the world we live in doesn't.

Maybe OP doesn't want to be gawped at by all and sundry if she is out with DH who is wearing dresses.

There is a famous transvestite on the Wirral, known as the Birkenhead Tranny.
He is famous because he is a big bloke, who looks like a bloke and dresses as a woman all the time.

I don't think he is mocked, but goodness you can't really miss him.

A surprising amount of wives do find a way of accommodating it. That is why the Beaumont society can help as there are women who have been in a similar situation and no doubt have had the same reactions.

Marriages have often had to survive far worse things.

Thants that's a rather simplistic and not terribly realistic suggestion. It's also overlooking the person doing the cross dressing may be selecting the clothes because of the message they are sending.

As indeed are most people when they select what to wear.

I couldn't accept this - it was something I quizzed DH on when we were getting serious, just to make sure that it wasn't something he was into.

I find it hard to explain why I would find it so upsetting in my own situation - I have no issues with other men doing it. I guess I'm not very secure in my own attractiveness and I do worry about others think, I respect social boundaries and norms, and I want to fit into society. I guess that makes me narrow minded and judgemental .

The OP found this out about her DH when she was pregnant - how more vulnerable could she have been? She thought they had reached a compromise - now he wants more. She's not the one breaking the deal, he is. Their deal as I see it was that his cross dressing was kept private, but she would facilitate it and allow him to do it in private.

Marriage is all about compromises. DH is off picking up his sports car with money that I would rather see in a pension plan. No one gets everything that they want, or if they do it's generally at the expense of the other partner. Last time I looked, society was not generally accepting of men dressed as women - perhaps it should be, but that's a different AIBU.

One thing that struck me when you talked about sex being more passionate after he cross dressed, is that for some men, this is a sexual fetish. Dressing up in women's clothes turn them on. That for some men is why it couldn't be a flouncy men's coat or lacy men's top. For some it is the fact that it is women's clothes, that is the important aspect.

But clothes can just be clothes. Putting ideology onto them is a choice. We can choose to reject how we are socialised.

OP I have had a look at that Beaumont Society website and I suspect you really will find it a useful resource. I would wander over there if I were you. I don't think any of us who haven't dealt with this will know how we'd react if faced with it firsthand. The risk of giving terrible advice seems high- but I feel so much sympathy for you I felt I had to post.

Thants, I suppose she finds it upsetting because a man wearing a dress is so outside the cultural norm it's not easy to work out why.

Clothes are not just clothes. They come with all sorts of social and cultural baggage. What you wear makes a statement about yourself. Even the "I'm happiest in old jeans and a t-shirt" brigade are making a statement (with the subject text I'm not shallow like you in the pretty dress? But maybe that's just me being paranoid)

If OH told me he wanted to cross dressing I'd be confused about why. Does that make me bigoted?

The thing is it really is just clothes. Imagine if your dp told you he didn't want you wearing trousers or flat shoes or having short hair? Just because we deem dresses to be feminine doesn't mean they intrinsically are.
What exactly about it upsets you? I would hope that other peoples bigoted opinions of your dp don't affect your opinion of him.

Letitsnow you are referring to someone who is dealing with gender issues and is happier living as a woman. That's a different matter from men who occasionally want to cross dressing. I don't think that's what OP's situation is although she's worried that is where it might lead.

Oh for goodness sake, FloraFox, you've seen me on the feminist boards, you know I don't for one minute think that women should be handmaidens or subservient in a relationship. Nor do I think they should just accept anything.

BUT, not putting up with that with they are not comfortable should take the form of either having a discussion with their partner and coming to a compromise which is acceptable to both of them, or ending the relationship. Not telling their husband to repress an important part of himself if he wishes to remain in the relationship. You would, I'm sure, find it completely unacceptable if the roles were reversed and it was a man laying down the rules of what was and wasn't acceptable to him in terms of his wife's behaviour.

Yes, he should have told her before they entered into a long-term commitment, and yes, certainly he should have told her before they had a child together. We don't know his reasons for not telling her, but shame probably had a lot to do with it. I agree with you 100% that he should have told her and was wrong not to. However, that was 20 years ago, and two wrongs don't make a right. She is equally wrong to tell him he can't behave in a certain way. If she wasn't prepared to accept this side of him, she should have ended the relationship 20 years ago, child or no child.

And he should have ended the relationship instead of accepting her cruel treatment of him by forcing him to keep it repressed.

To sum up the original question, is the OP unreasonable to not want her husband to wear dresses? In my opinion, yes, but that's my opinion. She is entitled to her own.

What she is not entitled to do, however, is tell him he can't do it. He is just as entitled to live his own life and pursue his own interests as she is.

So IMO her choice is either to accept him as he is or end the relationship. She can't continue to force him to be someone he isn't, just to placate her own sensibilities.