To be a traditional sahm ??

Do you think so bonsoir?
I take parenting very seriously and so does my dh. We don't believe good parenting equates with frantic obsessing over whether our dd or ds are 'outperforming' little johnny in end of term test. Neither do we spend hours in a state of high anxiety about what career our children might end up in. Perhaps the fact that we both have interesting careers ourselves helps us to not transfer any unfulfilled ambitions onto them!!

"I think those mothers are taking their children's future seriously and that if you haven't the time or inclination to do so yourself, their attitude makes you anxious."

Disagree!!! I think this has become their one and only role - to ensure their children succeed and they support their husband's careers. As women we should have moved on from that role of just being about the future success of our children. It is important of course - but should it be our raison d'être?

I think that celebrity culture now unfortunately informs much of people's perception of the worth of others. If people haven't got a publicly validated label attached to their identity, they are "worthless".

I do see your point but I still think you are wrong.
I am approaching retirement age and DH is past retirement age so what we will do after retirement has been discussed and it was a bit of an eyeopener to realise that people like me, still fit enough to work (part time if not full time) are sitting at home. (though many, in fact, i would guess at, most, are doing some voluntary work). But finding something you are good at, or is available in your area, or you have time for, or that you have the confidence to put yourself forward for is not that easy.

And in the end it is everyone's own choice. We live in a free country and I would wonder what your issues are that make you so anti SAHP, why shouldn't we do what we want - perhaps its v sensible to do what you want that makes you happy rather than martyr yourself because someone else says you should.

"I have to say that the most Unattractive and self serving mums I've encountered are a local clique who spend their time obsessing over whether their child is in the top set, where they 'rank' in relation to other children and whether they'll get into a top university. Really, life is bigger than that."

I think those mothers are taking their children's future seriously and that if you haven't the time or inclination to do so yourself, their attitude makes you anxious.

Chandellina - well, yes, there does need to be someone there for the children once they start school, but it doesn't need to be a parent. There are such things as childminders and before/after school clubs. Also, there are 6 hours between 9 and 3 that need filling up....

I think what's hacked off some is the sense in which your OP contains an implicit boast... 'You don't think SAHM can work, but see, look at me!'

Yes, SAHM is all fine if you like it - and not everyone does.... All fine, until it isn't. What if your breadwinner leaves? You will be unemployable. What if he gets sick or dies? Do you have lots of insurance? What happens when your children grow up - as in what happens to you? These are the fears we all harbour, and they restrain us - rightly, I think, but your life belongs to you, and what is any life without some risk?

Someone has to be there for children in the day or to do school runs. I don't think it matters that much who it is, children like having their parents around but also benefit from having hard working parents making the most of their abilities and educations.

I'm pleased to see some people understanding what I'm trying to say, and even agreeing with me!

Hi MsVestibule, you are right - I would have had the conversation about the school, our children, the PTA rep - as I often do with these Mums. I am not against trivia - just against narrow lives, when in this day and age it is not necessary. I know you resent the implication that SAHM's are less interesting - as would I. I also resent, on behalf of these women when at dinner parties their DH's who are often a big factor in the fact they are now at home, try not to sit next to SAHM's. I have on numerous occasions had the 'oh thank God I got next to you, we can talk about something other than children'. I know this will anger SAHM - it should!!!

I fully understand the point AL is making and I am saying that it is not necessarily those who make a song-and-dance about volunteering that are actually contributing the most to others.

Is it a greater contribution to society to dress up as a witch with the other members of your PTA, hand out sweets for Halloween at the school gate and seek the applause of other school parents (visible) or to quietly support your friend who has cancer and is desperately worried about ensuring her children's future?

Bonsoir - Of course I don't know who is doing what in their private time. That's why I don't form judgments about people I don't know.

Matisout - I think you're deliberately missing my point, or we're looking at this from two very different angles. This discussion has not at any stage been about dysfunctional families. The point I was trying to make is that some people are so far up their own arses that they think their little ray of sunshine children are so amazing and wonderful that just having squeezed then out of their fanjos was all the positive contribution they ever need to make to the world.

I agree with aanieL's point.

It's not about making a song and dance about volunteering or helping people out. She's making the point that bringing children up in a healthy balanced way is about embracing the fact that they are part of a wider society rather than focusing 100% of your energy onto your own biological offspring. Obviously when a child has particular needs or disability there may be less time and energy to spend looking outwards but I think what annieL is referring to is more an attitude of mind. I have to say that the most Unattractive and self serving mums I've encountered are a local clique who spend their time obsessing over whether their child is in the top set, where they 'rank' in relation to other children and whether they'll get into a top university. Really, life is bigger than that.

Bonsoir- I think the point that AL is making is that you can take proper care of and responsibility for your family and contribute in other ways, whether as a volunteer for an organisation of helping within a preschool/ school setting, etc. I wholeheartedly agree with her about the positive contribution to society and how insular we have become.

I haven't noticed any correlation between whether someone is a SAHM/WOHM and how well their family is taken care of. Once the DC are in school, SAHM is hardly a full time occupation.

Not to be the twat on this thread but what exactly are you teaching your children? Are you dd's never going to work or aspire to anything other than washing up? Are your ds's going to solely financially support their families and take that burden on their own?

I have no issue with sahm I'm one at the moment as on may leave however I will be returning to work so my partner is under less pressure, to stimulate my mind and so my dc know and understand the importance of a good education and contributing to society etc.

However secure you think you are I suspect if something did happen to your partner you would struggle immensely to fill that gap. Who the hell would employ you having never worked before? Professional pot washer??? Benefits would be your only option or do you rely on them already?

Agree with MayIsOut.

Conceiving and giving birth makes you a parent. It doesn't mean you will take parenting seriously.

But the point is, Annie, that you don't know who is making a valuable contribution and who is not. I see SAHMs around me who spend a lot of time on the PTA, toddlers' groups etc (and seek applause for doing so...) and, at the end of the day, they are actually busy filling their own empty days, not helping anyone but themselves. Often their children are not particularly well brought-up or doing very well at school - they get less attention than the children of parents who actually concentrate on their children's needs. Other, quieter but more focused parents, help out people in a quiet way, don't seek the limelight and are actually making a genuine contribution to others' lives.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. AnnieL.

bringing up children doesn't count because pretty much everyone does that

DN is a social worker and was talking about the thousands in the local town who are heroin addicts, part of that problem I would put down to their parents thinking that bringing up children doesn't count.

Bickie - genuine question - if you had sat down for a coffee with the Ugg wearing, latte wearing SAHMs, what would you have talked to them about?

Just because somebody goes out to work really, really does not make them a more interesting conversationalist. I went out to work for 20 years before having children, working my way up to a relatively senior level. I am now SAHM. However, the chit chat among my former colleagues/current friends has not changed at all - it can/could either be about world politics or which control garments are most effective, and everything in between.

I understand people's concerns about lack of financial autonomy, pension arrangements etc, but I do resent the implication that SAHMs are less interesting because they don't WOH.

What does the "noise" anyone makes about their community help matter? I said that running toddler groups, helping at school etc, as many SAHMs do, is a positive contribution. It's the people who do nothing outside of their own family I'm taking about.

But no, bringing up children doesn't count because pretty much everyone does that, and most also manage to work in some form as well.

Most people who genuinely help others do so in their own time and without making a song and dance about it. Those who feel the need to "volunteer" within an institutional or organisational context are not necessarily the most helpful - in fact, they are sadly only too often glory-hunters or people with few friends looking for social contact. Many SAHMs have added and continue to add a great deal to the community they are in in a quiet way. Do not overlook this.

Of course caring for disables family counts!! I just think everyone should be trying to make a positive contribution, rather than being a negative drain. Why wouldn't you want to leave the world better than you found it?

I see your point AnnieL but don't agree unless the non-worker is taking alot from society as well as not contributing and bringing up children, caring for disabled family etc must surely be contributing.

But Bonsoir, you can take adequate care of your family and also add a little more to your broader community. I would counter your argument with my opinion that people becoming more and more insular and inward-looking, and that less community spirit and mutual help is contributing to many of society's problems. It's the "I'm alright Jack" attitude. No matter how well families look after themselves, there will be people whose circumstances have left them in need of help, and who may not have their own family nearby to provide that help.