To be a traditional sahm ??

This isn't the first time we have been unable to see each other's point of view, Bonsoir. I will disengage with you now. I have work to do .

Then there is a difference in opinions regarding what is a persons's 'responsibility'.

Bonsoir- I may be wrong but I am sensing something personal in your posts when you say that you feel angry about people using work as a trump card to abdicate responsibility.

I think I am the one that has been explaining attitudes on this thread, Annie and that they are deeper than volunteering for toddler group and shouting about it.

I think people are allowed to amuse themselves once all their responsibilities have been fulfilled, yes.

I am much angrier about people who use work as a trump card to avoid any kind of domestic or childcare responsibility than about mothers who spend half an hour having a coffee and chat in the morning before getting on with their often quite lonely days.

ProudMum, please can you let me know what your husband does which supports your whole family on those hours? I wouldn't mind doing that or getting DP to do it. If only one of us works (which I would love) I doubt the other would spend the whole time doing housework. but it's your time, whatever floats your boat. Anyway what is it that your husband does, and it is hard to get into?

"amuse myelf"-yes that is exactly what I plan to do

You appear fixated on outward appearances, Bonsoir. I am talking about attitudes.

"I think AL was suggesting that SAHMs usually have more time/ flexibility to contribute, especially once the DC are at school than someone working full time. I think she was referring to the attitude that some have (a minority) that raising a family is enough of a contribution and that once this is done or the DC are fairly independent, they should just amuse themselves."

^^ this

The fact of working and paying taxes does not a contribution to society make per se, AnnieLobeseder. Many dual-working families are net beneficiaries of the tax system and many families with one SAHP and one WOHP are net contributors to the tax system.

Bonsoir- it was this quote:
'Personally I see about me two sorts of parents in our economically and socially advantaged environment: complacent ones where both parents work, did fine and think that if they provide their children with similar opportunities they had themselves, they will be fine. And realistic ones, who know the world has moved on, that the competition is really frightening and that their children will need 3x or 4x the skills they had at the same age to go to the same universities and have a similar lifestyle.'

Perhaps I interpreted it incorrectly.

I think AL was suggesting that SAHMs usually have more time/ flexibility to contribute, especially once the DC are at school than someone working full time. I think she was referring to the attitude that some have (a minority) that raising a family is enough of a contribution and that once this is done or the DC are fairly independent, they should just amuse themselves.

I am not anti-SAHP. I am anti selfish people who don't care about anything beyond themselves. It doesn't make any difference whether they work or not. But at least people who don't care with jobs are still contributing to the economy, so are being helpful by default.

I will stop now - there's not point arguing with people who are determined to misunderstand me.

Because you seem unable to recognise the contribution that people make to the lives of others unless it has some kind of organisation or label to it.

Oh FFS, I have not at any point said WOHPs are trying and SAHPs are lazy. You are putting words in my mouth and that is somewhat lazy and misrepresentative of my argument. Why do you keep harping on about recognition?

FergusSingsTheBlues "want to get involved with local politics, start my own business etc". Exactly, you have plans and ambitions, so why would anyone think that means you have less to society?

Many people are not trying to make the world a better place, Annie. Using WOHM as a shorthand for trying and SAHM as a shorthand for not is very lazy and naïve and not a representation of the world.

And many people who actively try to make the world a better place are not looking for fame, fortune or recognition...

Fair enough, pag and may. It probably doesn't come across that way, but I'm not really trying to tell people who should volunteer and who shouldn't. But I genuinely, honestly and truly am baffled by people who aren't actively trying to make the world better for having been alive. And I will concede that many people who work certainly fall into this category too. I just suppose it to be easier for folk who don't work to help out, since they have more free time. I will label myself naive and shush now.

No, I didn't say that, sugarandspiced. Where did you get that from?

I am reading AnnieL's posts more about being an attitude of mind rather than exactly how many hours voluntary work someone does per week (because as people rightly say, volunteering nowadays is quite a beaurocratic business whereby you need to commit to certain hours, perhaps be CRB checked etc) .

It's about viewing the world as bigger than just your biological offspring, where everyone elses children are some sort of threatening competition.

Everyone gets a shockingly bad time

SAHMS
WOHMS
People on benefits
People who drive 4x4s
People who FF
People who BF
People who co-sleep
People who don't
People who CC
People who pick them up when they cry
People who wax their pubes
People who let it grow free
People who say "what"
People who say "pardon"

and so on........

It appears that your personal experience, Bonsoir, seems to be that the more 'complacent' parents happen to both work and the more 'realistic' ones have a SAHP- think I've understood your post correctly.

That is certainly not my experience at all, far from it.

There are many different ways of raising happy, functional children. There isn't one perfect recipe.

Mayisout:
'Also others do not feel they are scrounging from society they are living their life.'
I think you have proven AL's point entirely with this sentence.
That is the whole point. These women (generally women) are so insular and concerned only with living THEIR life that they do not see the bigger picture and consider others at all. Of course they do not see themselves as scrounging because they simply do not think!

sAHMs get a shockingly bad time on here. I dont really understand the defensive/ aggressive attitude tbh. I work but probably wont go back after my second child because two parents working high pressure jobs has put a lot of strain on our family. I enjoy looking after my husband and child and want to get involved with local politics, start my own business etc. I am no less valuable to society or my family for that.

All this assumption that the sahm raises indulged children while leaving herself vulnerable financially and of course brain dead and ambiton-free really irritates me. Sahm is what you make it but there should be no shame in wanting to be totally hands on in caring for your family, and that is not a criticism of wohm either.

Bickie

yes I know. Apparently making really good chocolates scores quite high too

I agree with every single thing you say Annie, right up to the point where you tell people who should be volunteering and who doesn't have to because they work full time.
Dh helped out or years at a rugby club on a Saturday morning while working 12 hours a day mon to Friday . My friend does shifts at Samaritans around her work.
Telling sahms that they should be volunteering when you don't is a bit off really.

But I agree with everything else.

"Perhaps I am naive, but it seems to me that lots of people are very selfish to just be 'living their lives' with no concern for anyone else, and that's the root of a lot of what is wrong with society."

That has absolutely nothing to do with whether parents work or not. Frankly, the absolutely most selfish parents I ever meet are those that work in entirely commercially/marketing focused jobs whose whole lives revolve around pushing useless consumer goods to people. They rarely pay any attention to anything but making a lot of money and having a good time - their concept of responsibility to others was probably limited to start with (or they wouldn't have chosen the career path they did) and by the time they hit their mid-40s it is severely warped.

AnnieL.
Well that's probably why we dont' agree - I don't really think there is anything wrong with our society (or at least ours is better than most)
And if you volunteered you would find it often requires v regular commitment so what would happen in the school hols? Oh, and can take weeks of training and a criminal records check. And as I have seen all my elderly rellies shuffle off this mortal coil over the last decade I have NO wish to pop in to visit any lonely elderly and won't have for many a year.