To be a traditional sahm ??

Technically Jamie, purchase of any product contributes to the economy re national income and jobs but this is way off the mark of how we choose to parent and work really.

I certainly don't get the mortgage bit either. Surely having a mortgage is totally about benefiting oneself. I have yet to come across anyone who pays their mortgage just to benefit the bank!
( not that there is anything wrong with having a mortgage- just failing to see the 'logic' of that post by mayisout)

Life is not a competition about who contributes most to society and, ergo, holds the moral high-ground.

Mayisout So are you suggesting that the nurse, who has no children, elederly relatives or mortgage (), but who spends countless hours at work caring for other people is contributing less to society than the SAHP whose sole focus is their own immediate family?

[steps tragedy emoticon]

I think a distortion of time and sound just occurred in my SAHP world.......

Lest just blame the feminists shall we who gave us all choices and now we fighting like dogs.

I'm not anti-SAHM but I am anti-boring dependent no-aspiration folk of any description.

Well, that's ime.
No DCs, no mortgage, no elderly rellies so only yourself to worry about. Generalising of course.

Can you come and do mine as well?

My first !

It's the people, some of whom happen to also be SAHPs who do nothing but indulge themselves that concern me
Ime the ones who indulge themselves most are the single, professional 20-30s, long hours, hard work but lots of hols and fun. Though they probably do the occasional sponsored run.
Mixing up non-contributing to society and the supposed spare time of SAHP was where things got confused.

And Amber, I agree with Janey and Karlos and others - being an SAHM guarantees nothing. MY mother was SAHM, and she loathed it and was hopelessly depressed; my MIL did a lot of harm to her 4 kids too, mainly thwarting their ambition lest they cast her off.

I agree Janey - and I think we all agree that both SAHM and WOHM can successfully bring up well balanced children. My concern is less for the children but more for the women who I feel are putting themselves in a vulnerable situation by believing their 'traditional' way of navigating the world won't end in tears in what is a very modern world. It may not be divorce - it may be death, redundancy, drugs there are thousands of examples on MN and all over the Internet about what can go wrong. But I have said my bit. My haircut is about to end and I don't usually get this much time to engage on here. I've enjoyed it. Hope everyone especially OP was given food for thought - I know I was!

My MIL was very much on the model of the OP and, lovely woman that she was, I'm afraid she did a lot of damage. I think in the OPs case this may be mitigated by the fact she has 5 children rather than an only child as DH was but I would still urge her, if she genuinely has the best interests of her DC at heart, to reconsider her approach. Speaking as someone who has a child who is likely to be substantially dependent for all his life, independence in children is a precious and wonderful thing and your primary role as a parent is to foster it. I encourage my DS to do absolutely everything for himself he possibly can and I can testify to how valuable this is in building capability and self-esteem.

I would say that a part of bringing children up well is to focus not simply on them but on the wider world. How can children possibly grow up emotionally and intellectually balanced if they think they are central to the universe ...

Sorry Amber, I disagree. Just bringing up children doesn't make the world better, even if they do turn out to be good people. Good people who do nothing don't make the world better. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke) and similar shamelessly stolen quotes.

Excellent nutshell post, Pagwatch, at 11.43.

if you are bringing up your kids properly then that is enough of a contribution imo.

If more people did this then there would be a lot less fucked up people.who would also contribute to society.

Yes. I see that.

And yes, the people who contribute nothing, whatever their family set up, bother me too.

AnnieL you have patiently explained your point many times and it's clear that you are talking about attitudes rather than dictating that anyone should do voluntary work for X Y or Z hours per week.
Anyway, I think the whole issue about how much time people have isn't central anyway, since IME experience, those with an outward looking 'can do' approach to life will fit more in and achieve more, whereas those with the opposite approach will do less. My teacher SIL makes a similar observation about her school actually... She says the brightest hard working students are often the ones who arein the orchestra, play in the school sports teams and choose to mentor younger pupils too. Isn't there a saying- 'if you want something done, ask a busy woman'

PP was to pag, btw.

Mayisout - I don't know many SAHMs to form an opinion. And I'm not generalising about SAHMs, I know that most are very busy. It's the people, some of whom happen to also be SAHPs who do nothing but indulge themselves that concern me. There's so much wrong with the world, and I don't see how anyone can not want to fix it in some, albeit small, way. I'd love to have the time to do more myself.

Well, if more men were SAHP I'd say the same about them. My "telling people they should do more" falls on women unfairly, yes, I see that. But only because women tend to SAH. Not because I think women should be doing it.

YOu must live in a wealthy part of teh country AnnieL to hold these views on the idle post SAHMs with their selfish lifestyle. Or you read about celebrities in the DM and think it's true!
They're v thin on the ground round here.

Don't shush Annie.
Like I said, I agree with you mostly.

I think I recoil from anyone saying 'sahms have free time, they should do this with it' because it plays on a stereotype. It's just a bit 'well they arn't doing anything important' when most sahms I know are doing loads - they just don't talk about it.

Plus it plays to the backdrop of 'the big society' where people who are far too busy doing important things tell other people they should do more.
And women always get told to do the stuff no one else will do. That's why squillions of us are carers and why that is less and less valued.

Mayisout:'Also others do not feel they are scrounging from society they are living their life.'I think you have proven AL's point entirely with this sentence.
That is the whole point. These women (generally women) are so insular and concerned only with living THEIR life that they do not see the bigger picture and consider others at all. Of course they do not see themselves as scrounging because they simply do not think

OMG - i wasn't referring to SAHMs or whoever you think 'these women' are sugarandspiced I was referring to people in general who are living their lives, and lives are generally much busier than when I was a child in the 50s, being described as selfish and taking from society!!!!!
NOOOOO they are just livng their lives, as you are and AnnieL, according to what choices you have made, they are not BAD because they are not doing whatever AnnieL thinks they should be doing, even if she isn't doing it herself!!!

Perhaps Mayisout, I was influenced by the fact that I knew it was temporary . Although one of my SAH periods lasted for quite a long period .

My DH does sometimes work away so there are times when I am looking after all four on my own .

I would love to be a long term SAHM, but I did not make choices in life that allow that.