To really not understand why childminders expect to be paid for their holidays and sick pay?

YANBU, its one of many reasons I would never choose a childminder over other forms of childcare.

If you are SE you do so in the knowledge that the benefits of working for yourself outweigh the lack of holiday and sickness pay.

YANBU Childminders are self-employed and therefore they have to look after their own holiday pay and sick pay. You don't pay a self-employed person if they aren't available to work for you. You do pay if you go away when they are available to work, so it's reasonable to pay them if you go on holiday.

I think the tax and employer implications mentioned at the bottom of page 1 are worth reading as well.

OP nothibg to do with the op subject but I'd be careful with your working set up - it could get you and employer into trouble - the tax man thinks you should be PAYE if you are working for just one client like that

To address riksti's points, the NCMA encourages childminders to charge for sickness and holiday for the reasons I've stated. They work very closely with the IR and negotiate on behalf of childminders so I doubt very much that parents would find themselves liable for their childminder's tax. They'll have checked out the legal situation in full.

A quick look at the childminder board would answer your question, I think.

Anyway, to summarise the points that have so often been made:

A childminder has her own contract. It's up to her whether or not she charges for holidays and sickness. If you sign the contracy, you're agreeing to this. You're therefore being unreasonable to complain about terms that you have agreed to.

A childminder's sickness is often because of the bugs a minded child has brought it. Perhaps if parents didn't dose their children up and try to pass off diarrhoea as "teething", childminders wouldn't feel justified in charging when they take those rare days off sick. Most childminders will try to keep going as they know that parents rely on them. Sick days aren't taken lightly.

Same with holidays. Childminders don't just down tools and relax on their holidays. I spend a lot of the time in preparation, notes, learning journeys, rearranging the house, giving it a thorough clean because the mindees make lots of mess, draw on walls, what have you. Even though your childminder may not physically have your child with you, he or she will probably still be working for the benefit of your child.

Not all childminders charge for sickness and holiday. Those that don't invariably factor in sickness and holiday into their fees, as do many self-employed people. They'll have a higher rate, therefore (though I bet it's nothing like the high rates that other self-employed professions charge). Perhaps those childminders that charge for holidays and sickness are just being transparent in their charges and letting you know exactly what you're paying for.

I think that's everything? If you're wondering, I don't charge for either sickness or holiday: I factor it in. I also get people whinging that I charge more than some of the other childminders in the area. Can't win really, can we?

I wonder if we'll get that other chestnut about why is a childminder on the internet when she should be working? ;)

To answer that one to those who are worrying about my charges' safety and well-being, I work with another childminder. Lucky me. Most don't get a break at all. The computer is in the playroom with the children and I can see them at all times. I hope this addresses any concerns you may have :)

YABU. They are a commercial enterprise and can charge what they like and set what terms they like on the service they provide. It's then up to consumers whether to pay those charges or go elsewhere.

If they can fill their spaces whilst charging holiday and sick pay why wouldn't they? If they find that doing that makes them uncompetitive and they lose business, they'd change.

YANBU - I wouldn't sign a contract like that.

The nursery I use for DS charges a daily rate, but I'm billed monthly, with a slight reduction on those set days allowing for the week they are closed over christmas and the bank holidays. (which I'm not charged for).

I pay when DS isn't there,because they provide the place whether I use it or not. When DS's key worker is on holiday, I still pay, but then they have other staff covering, same for sick leave.

If she wants paying for holidays and sick pay, then she should provide an alternative childcare option without you having to pay twice.

All you've got there is the down side of employing someone directly, but not the upsides of being in control. With 2, would it be much more expensive to hire a nanny/use a nursery?

A slightly different perspective - possibly coloured by my job which is tax consultant. HMRC sometimes reviews self-employed workers' status to see whether they are actually employed and are just using self-employed status to avoid tax. The employer paying sick pay and holiday pay are strong indicators towards employment. If HMRC do find that the childminder is employed by you then all the tax due will become your liability.
As I said, this view is probably coloured by the work that I do but I would be very careful about agreeing such a contract since it potentially leaves you open to liability. Obviously I don't know anything about your contract or circumstances but if you're worried it might be worth having a professional look at it to make sure there are no nasty surprises.
Finally, definitely not unreasonable to expect a self-employed individual to cover their own sick leave and holiday.

If you don't like the terms of the contract you should shop around for better terms. My CM doesn't charge if she is sick but charges a rate of 50% for up to 8 weeks of holiday a year, 4 of which she can take and 4 that we can take. BTW we are in SE London.

I can sort of see the logic of the holidays, in that most contractors charge/receive a higher hourly rate than an employee, which basically takes into account their lack of holiday entitlement. However, it's unreasonable as a self-employed person to charge your clients for your time off sick. That's just a factor of being self-employed.

YANBU. My childminder doesn't charge for her holidays or when she's sick (I assume, as she has not had a day off sick in the 2 years I have used her). She charges me when my ds is off sick but is quite flexible about changing days around if my ds is sick on one of the days she is meant to have him.

I have been working as a contractor for the past few years and am not paid for holidays or when sick. The higher daily rate compensates for this which is how I assume it should work with a childminder.

I am a childminder and I don't charge when I am unavailable, but like the others have said why did you sign the contract if you are not happy with the terms?

Having said that we have self employed people working for us in our business, and we do pay them holiday pay - I'd rather do that (and take it into account in setting pay rates) than have people not take time off.

So it doesn't seem unreasonable of her if it is in her contract with you and the overall rate per year is ok. But if she is having a lot of time off sick, I can see it would be problematic and perhaps need further talking over.

My current childminder charges for something like 2 weeks of holidays but not any others. Twice she has taken holiday in term time (to take her pre-schl age grandchildren on holiday and she's not got many pre-schl age ones left now so hopefully she won't do it again as I'm a teacher so obviously can't take holidays) and as her daughter is a child minder she was able to have my youngest so we paid her instead. Apart from a couple of days where the daughter couldn't help out and so cm didn't charge.

We don't pay when/if she is sick but again, if the daughter can help she will.

My previous childminder charged for 4 weeks holidays but I don't think she charged if she was ill. And she was a stickler for getting every penny she could from you!

NCMA have suggested CMs can charge, as it is a long term contract, not one off jobs, like many self employed workers. When I worked for a large company and we took on long term Self Employed Contractors, they were entitled to holiday and sick time off paid.

Its definitely not universal - our childminder didn't charge for her holidays. She wasn't ever sick in the time dd went to her so I don't know what would have happened then.

She did try to re-arrange where possible so that if she had a day off her charges would come on a different day - she only minded 2 days a week and most of her parents were self employed so that was fine. But for her 2 week holiday she didn't charge.

I am a CM and I only charge when I am available, so it is not 'standard' to charge holidays and sick. Sometimes the CMs who charge holiday and sick have a lower hourly rate, so over the year you may be paying the same amount.

As Taniar82 said - you agreed to the terms of the contract ...

I'm a childminder and do not charge for my own holidays or sick. If u didn't agree to the terms of the contract why did u sign? I know a few childminders who charge for their holiday but none who charge for their sickness

YANBU at all!!
I too had a fab childminder but it really wound me up that I had to pay her for hols (although not her sickness)

You're either self employed or you're not, you can't have it both ways

Agree it seems unfair. But in a market place, it is logical for your cm to charge as much as she can get and if she can get holiday and sick pay,then it makes sense to get it.

Yes I agree too. Self employed so that's the way it should be.

Yanbu op....

My childminder doesn't do this.

I pay if my child is unwell or when we take holidays.

I don't pay for her holidays or if she's sick.