To not want my 4 year old to wear a school tie?

Goodness I hope so! Makes me wonder if everyone I see in RL is secretly judging the social implications of everything I do!

A 4 year old CAN be taught to tie a tie, just as they can be taught to tie a shoelace. DD learnt to tie a tie within the first half term of school - so by the time she was 4 and a half. There is no reason why most children can't manage it.

I wore a tie at school. My brother did. My sister did. All state primaries btw. oes were not removed for playtime back then. I have no knowledge of any school time accidents caused by ties.

My DD has a tie for her winter uniform and that is not removed for playtime. Again, no play time accidents or incidents caused by ties there either.

Now, if you don't personally don't like it - fine. Say so. But the reasons given are pretty much nonsense on the whole. They are not health and safety issues, they can learn to tie them, they don't make children all become the same, they don't stifle individuality, etc.

Only on MN do people seriously overthink things!

"I also think that school uniforms serve only to reinforce the patriarchal structures of our society and have no bearing on educational outcomes."

This was what I was really commenting on.

I'm not saying that ties maintain stereoptyes. I'm saying that it is bizarre to put a girl in a piece of exclusively male clothing in order to get an education.

It's pretty bizarre to put a boy in a piece of clothing most adult men of my acquaintance can;t wait to haul off anc chuck in a corner at the end of the day anyway, but for a girl it's just wierd!

Just don't think uniforms maintain gender stereotypes any more than the pink/blue divide that seems to divide children when they choose their own clothes. Or, in the case of older children, the cool guy/sex-kitten clothing that teenagers seem to choose for themselves.

I grew up in a place where some of the boys always turned up to school parties in kilts. (not that it has anything to do with ties!)

I agree with seeker's POV on here.
can I also go at the idea that you would CHOOSE or CHANGE a school because of the uniform??? seriously???? Where do you all LIVE? there really isn't that kind of choice for the majority of people. The choice of a school is made on a number of issues - proximity, availability of afterschool care, quality of education, where siblings/friends go (practicalities like lift sharing etc), where there are places. To suggest that uniform is a key factor is just flippant.
Choice is a red herring for many people ime. But that's not to say that because you have technically 'chosen' a school that you should just put up and shut up if you don't agree with something about the school.

I am assuming that you're not being serious about girls wearing ties breaking down gender barriers, bubbaluv.

Kilts at the school my boys will go to!

if breaking down gender barriers is what we want, then why don't we put all the children in dresses or skirts?

So would boys wearing skirts, but i can't see a school being able to insist tht they did!

Seeker, if a tie in a masculine clothing item, them surely it breaks down gender barriers by insisting that girls wear them?

A tie for a 4yo is a bit silly but I am totally at poster who says her 2.5 yo had to wear one! who comes up with that kind of dress code for TODLERS?

OP YANBU

nothing gender neutral about a tie!

And this thread isn't about uniform/no uniform - it'a about ties for 4 year olds!

I don't have girls myself, but I've certainly noticed that (younger ones mainly I guess) seem to be permanently adorned in a sea of pink and sparkles.
I'm not saying many schools have uniforms that are actually gender neutral, but nor are they generally pink and sparkly.
We wore blackwatch tartan with a black tie in high school (urgh!) and yet girls were still trying to make it look sexy. I would happily bet that a lot of the sensible clothing girls leave home in is tweaked if not changed entirely by the time it reaches school.
I think you meet a teenage girl who was happy to dress in a gender neutral way.

dd's friends very rarely wear skirts and I've never seen any frills (mini skirts are banned). They mostly wear jeans and t-shirts, as do the boys. In the summer they are inclined to wear shorter shorts than the boys. They look like a bunch of kids, some scruffy, some neat, all full of individuality.

In the UK at their primary school dd always wore a skirt and all the girls wore dresses in the summer. One or two wore trousers, but it was unusual. Most girls wear skirts at school, I can't think of any schools that have gender neutral uniforms.

In fact I think that kids here might spend rather less time thinking about clothes because they aren't shoehorned into uniform all week. They generally wear the same sort of clothes at the weekend as they do at school. dd went to a party the other day with a bunch of 14 year old girls and they were all wearing surprisingly sensible clothes I thought.

Someone said something earlier about uniforms intrenching gender roles, but I fail to see how allowing girls to get about dressed in pink frills and mini skirts would break down any barriers.
Lots of uniforms are probably the most gender neutral thing in a girl's wardrobe!

You can elasticate the tie yourself by tying it firmly on your child then cuttinh through the back and sewing in a piece of elastic that will stretch to let your ds pull it over his head.PE changing time must be a nightmare in that school!

Oh yes and my kids roll around the floor, climb things, run around........as they all do, all 206 children at the school, and they ALL wear ties, and no-one gets hurt.

Just my opinion of course, but I think a school of kids in jeans and t-shirts/hoodies would look awful/really scruffy . Since when did a school uniform become a big no-no? I don't understand and have honestly never heard it before. Would genuinley like to understand?!

Maybe this school is going to annoy you in many ways over the years. Treat this as a warning and go to another school.

Ties for tinies are stupid, but I'm not sure you can do anything about it without making your child stand out in a bad way.

However schools in continental Europe and America manage without the wonders of uniforms, I do not know.

I think children caqn be taught toi tie ties very young. And I really don't think they are a safety issue. I think it would be unsafe to climb trees in them or do WWF style wrestling - but presumably children in school wouldn't be doing that anyway.

I try to do that too Bubbaluv, and train dc to do that too!

It makes me laugh at end of school...you can always tell when reception/yr1 have had PE and tried to dress themsleves again....

Just don't completely untie it each day. Loosen it until it slips over his head - saves heaps of time in the morning. Someone's probably already said this but I don;t have time to read the whole thread I'm afraid.