to think that community service should not be about humiliation?

They don't really work for no pay. They have to be on benefits to be doing 40 hours of community service a week, right?

given treatment & job training which might stop them burgling my house in the future>>

That might work - oh wait though. Why should they work when they can just walk into any house and take what they want?

I don't think giving them a bit of light work is going to stop them doing it again either. I vote for cutting off a hand for each crime. That tends to limit repeat offences.

Sadly, they probably don't feel that humiliated. I expect some of them would be quite happy to be seen wearing the jackets for the same reason that criminals sometimes give more status to those that have done prison sentences. I understand your point about it possibly making them more angy at society, but if they find it that awfully humiliating to wear an orange jacket, then that should act as enough deterrent.

I mean really, is it that bad? Possibly a bit embarrasing, yes, but totally humiliating, no. Let's face it, when they chose to commit the crime, they ran the risk of having to take whatever punishment they got.

I sympathise with you lecce - I think it is a very fair point that the punishment is losing quite a lot of your time - how many of us would want to have to do 40 hour weeks for no pay ?

"I sound militant because my sister has worked with petty criminals who deliberately reoffend as they have a structured life inside whereas in the real world they have to fend for themselves."

I think you're right Mowgli that is the crux of the problem - a high proportion of petty (and other) offenders are people who can't cope in society - punishing them is not going to help us, figuring out a way that they can function in society is going to be far more to the point.

I'd much rather that a drug dependent petty criminal was given treatment & job training which might stop them burgling my house in the future, rather than that they were punished in a humiliating way that makes them feel at odds with society, and hence more justified in going out & committing the next crime.

I think the reasons they committed the crime in the first place have a lot more to do with their inability to become part of the community. I agree, humiliating someone isn't the way to go. But the problems go way deeper. I teach on a fairly rough council estate and some of the brightest, most personable pupils have become petty criminals because of their social background, lack of ambition and money, but mostly due to drug and alcohol abuse. It's a vicious circle.

I used to do that sort of work in order to support my family. I didn't feel like it most days either. So just saying making them do it is enough of a punishment doesn't really work.

Aside from the jacket it isn't actually a punishment at all. It's called 'going to work' and most people have to do it even though they never committed a crime.

Figures mean everything, what is seen to be done means fuck all. If you would rather have theater without ant concrete results go to the west end.

Lecce, why don't you go and work or volunteer for the prison service and then come and tell us if you still think they are all huggy wuggy people?

They should be glad that they are doing gardening and not in some boot camp or in a quarry smashing up rocks.

Millions of people all over the world have to do much more humiliating things and they are just trying to survive.

Scumbags deserve no sympathy and the public need to see justice being done, figures can be fiddled and don't mean anything.

I don't want the justice system to be about punishment. I want it to be about reducing crime. If very mild humiliation will do that, go for it, if it just makes people who aren't going to offend feel smug then don't.

leece x posts! Let's agree to disagree! I sound militant because my sister has worked with petty criminals who deliberately reoffend as they have a structured life inside whereas in the real world they have to fend for themselves.

It's laughable that you consider it a punishment for someone to do some gardening if they don't like it!!! Diddums. I'll save my sympathy for the victims of crime, not the perpetrators.

It also sends a message to would-be criminals that it's not something to aspire to and you don't get rich quick through robbery or drug dealing or mugging etc. The fashion of low hanging trousers showing off your pants is mirroring the US prison inmates attire - they have their belts confiscated. Wow, I really want my ds to copy criminals clothes .

Its not taking away someones human rights to dress them in an orange coat. It is community payback, they are being forced to payback society as opposed to serving the community in the same way a volunteer would.
Whoever is supervising them needs to see at a glance who is there if anyone has absconded. They are also part of a team which is an important factor in rehabilitating petty criminals.
Part of breaking the law means that you are on the edge and you are not going to be treated with the same reverence as a Chelsea Pensioner. Understanding that how you behave changes how you are treated is a big step forward for the young criminal who has never had a real consequence before.
I think a bit of humiliation can be a good thing in detering petty crime as a lot of it is caused be showing off and general twattery. Being humiliated is a good deterent against some crimes.

They are there to be punished! Humiliation is part of that punishement. Big society, showing others what a scumbag you are and hopefully they will be shamed into never doing it again.
Too soft on low grade criminals in this country, no wonder they think it's a good life on the inside

I certainly do NOT believe that "it's ok because that's what they did to their victim". You've inaccurately quoted me. What I said was, "I believe you forefeit your own right to complain about wearing a uniform that labels you as a criminal " Not that you forefeit all your rights to be treated as a human being. That would, as you say, be "shit".

I think 'community payback' shows there is a punishment being enforced whereas 'community service' could be seen as a voluntary act. Honestly, a little bit of humiliation may make then think next time.

I don't think it's there to humiliate them, I think it's there for the public to see that they are doing some good. I bet they get just as many positive comments as negative. Also, it is maybe so that people don't assume they're from the local council and start moaning to them about all sorts of other issues.

YABU - public humiliation is the price you pay for not going to prison - and accepting it is part of the price that we woolly liberals pay for keeping the Daily Mail tendency quiet.

IMO there's a desperate need for community service to be accepted by the public as a "real" punishment - otherwise we just end up with more and more people in prison for short sentences that destroy lives and families and do no-one any good.

YABU and what Mowgli said.

Were people pointing and commenting?

I have never noticed this. I don't think it's all that humiliating, tbh. It could certainly be much worse if it was supposed to be vindictive.